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Post by Richie3Jack on Dec 6, 2010 15:08:45 GMT -5
For those who don't know, when you take your normal address position and have your typical bend from the waist, that's called 'forward flexion.' One of the things that S&T and some other swing philosophies teach is to get out of forward flexion right after impact.
My question is does getting out of forward flexion help golfers turn their shoulders at a 90* angle to the spine or does it have no effect?
3JACK
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Post by iacas on Dec 6, 2010 15:42:02 GMT -5
One of the things that S&T and some other swing philosophies teach is to get out of forward flexion right after impact. Actually we teach it from between P5 and P6 on through to the finish, as well as on the backswing. You come out of flexion on the backswing (stand up), then regain your address flex (roughly) on the downswing as you re-flex your right knee, right hip, and so on, then various parts start extending from late P5 to P6 on through to the finish. If I wanted to be even shorter than those already short comments, I'd say we teach people to begin coming out of flexion at P6, not "right after impact." My question is does getting out of forward flexion help golfers turn their shoulders at a 90* angle to the spine or does it have no effect? Short answer, yes with an asterisk. If you remained flexed over, just as with the backswing, you'd have a hard time turning your shoulders in a circle. 3jack.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-you-change-spine-angle.htmlThe asterisk involves the fact that pushing the hips forward is partly what helps the hips to come out of flexion (tough to be in flexion at P8/P9 if the hips are in front of the head) and partly responsible for helping to maintain our sideways inclination. At address, it's purely flexion which keeps your head on the wall, and at P8 it's primarily extension and side tilting. Just as in the backswing - stand up, side tilt, rotate. Just that in the downswing the side tilting is put in with the hips sliding forward. Heading out in a bit of a hurry so I hope I didn't mistype anything. :-) P.S. The video on your blog post shows a swing that's just staying in flexion with no extension at all. Impossible to swing shoulders in a circle. |
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Post by michaelfinney on Dec 6, 2010 15:53:15 GMT -5
My question is does getting out of forward flexion help golfers turn their shoulders at a 90* angle to the spine or does it have no effect? 3JACK You cannot turn your shoulders in anyway other than 90 degrees to the top of your spine |
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Post by Richie3Jack on Dec 6, 2010 16:22:18 GMT -5
You cannot turn your shoulders in anyway other than 90 degrees to the top of your spine I agree, but I'm consider the lower part of the spine as well. 3JACK |
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Post by rohlio on Dec 6, 2010 16:46:39 GMT -5
You cannot turn your shoulders in anyway other than 90 degrees to the top of your spine I agree, but I'm consider the lower part of the spine as well. 3JACK I am sorry but what do you mean by you can't turn around the top part of your spine in anway other than 90 degrees? Your shoulders are not structurally connected to your spine at any point. They are connected to the Clavicle which hooks to your sternum via ligaments and can be elevated or declined. and also attached structurally to your scapula which is also not attached to the spine. The only connection of your shoulder to your spine is via muscle/ligament and as such is elastic and flexible You can in fact move your shoulders in a myriad number of directions without changing your spines inclination. Try shrugging with one shoulder, now turn the shoulders, you are no longer turning your shoulders perpendicular to the upper spine. Unless your Trap muscles are EXTREMELY tight, you need not manipulate your spine to accomplish this feat. So why is it agreed that we cannot turn are shoulders in a plane that is non perpendicular to the upper spine? Also to the original post if you didn't release your self from forward flexion at impact you would end up with your spine tilted toward the target in your follow through, that doesn't seem like a good idea to me. ( note that forward flexion after impact would no longer be towards where the ball was prior to impact but would rather be flexing your spine toward your belt buckle, which we presume is pointing at or near the target now). |
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Post by iacas on Dec 6, 2010 18:56:04 GMT -5
Also to the original post if you didn't release your self from forward flexion at impact you would end up with your spine tilted toward the target in your follow through, that doesn't seem like a good idea to me. ( note that forward flexion after impact would no longer be towards where the ball was prior to impact but would rather be flexing your spine toward your belt buckle, which we presume is pointing at or near the target now). This is all true as well. I might have read in to the original question a centered shoulder turn, or assumed that was part of the question. Of course anyone can turn their shoulders around their spine while running around and leaning way left and way right, but I think I assumed Rich wasn't asking that question. To your earlier point about how the shoulder aren't attached to the spine in such a way that they can't turn 90 degrees, I agree (though it's a fact, so it's not really something one can "agree" or "disagree" with). Some people will shrug their left shoulder up and let their right shoulder sag to turn their shoulder "flat," and I used to fight (still do on occasion) the opposite - shrugging my right shoulder up to the top of my backswing (really steep shoulders), then I'd let it "soften" without any rotation or change in my upper spine's inclination and the shoulder pitch would flatten. |
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Post by michaelfinney on Dec 6, 2010 22:48:33 GMT -5
I guess Rob Neal had his biomechanics wrong then, rohlio....... He said you couldn't do anything other than 90 to the top of the spine I agree, but I'm consider the lower part of the spine as well. 3JACK I am sorry but what do you mean by you can't turn around the top part of your spine in anway other than 90 degrees? Your shoulders are not structurally connected to your spine at any point. They are connected to the Clavicle which hooks to your sternum via ligaments and can be elevated or declined. and also attached structurally to your scapula which is also not attached to the spine. The only connection of your shoulder to your spine is via muscle/ligament and as such is elastic and flexible You can in fact move your shoulders in a myriad number of directions without changing your spines inclination. Try shrugging with one shoulder, now turn the shoulders, you are no longer turning your shoulders perpendicular to the upper spine. Unless your Trap muscles are EXTREMELY tight, you need not manipulate your spine to accomplish this feat. So why is it agreed that we cannot turn are shoulders in a plane that is non perpendicular to the upper spine? Also to the original post if you didn't release your self from forward flexion at impact you would end up with your spine tilted toward the target in your follow through, that doesn't seem like a good idea to me. ( note that forward flexion after impact would no longer be towards where the ball was prior to impact but would rather be flexing your spine toward your belt buckle, which we presume is pointing at or near the target now). |
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Post by rohlio on Dec 6, 2010 23:04:16 GMT -5
I guess Rob Neal had his biomechanics wrong then, rohlio....... He said you couldn't do anything other than 90 to the top of the spine Did he write that down somewhere? I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand without reading what he said, however I can think of myriad ways to rotate the shoulders that are not in a perpendicular plane to the cervical spine. I am wondering if he meant something slightly different (more subtle). The fact that you can shrug one shoulder at a time without moving the opposite one or drop one shoulder without lifting the other, or raise both or drop both proves that you can move the shoulders into different planes that are not perpendicular to the spine. That being said. I could be wrong and would love to learn why if I am. I most certainly do not know more on this topic than Dr. Neal does. |
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Post by iacas on Dec 7, 2010 0:44:21 GMT -5
Rohlio, perhaps he's talking about the pure rotational movement. Shrug one shoulder up, now turn. It's still going to turn in a "circle" and the center of that circle is still the spine... just that the two shoulders won't be tracing the same circle.
If that's the way he's thinking, then fine, but I'm not sure that's in the spirit of the question or what Richie was after when he asked.
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Post by natep on Dec 7, 2010 2:13:42 GMT -5
What are you guys referencing when you speak of P5, P6, p8, etc.?
Thanks ahead of time.
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Post by rohlio on Dec 7, 2010 2:21:14 GMT -5
Ringer was nice enough to post this summary a while back:
P1 - Setup
P2 - Shaft is parallel with the ground
P3 - Left arm is parallel with the ground
P4 - Top of the backswing
P5 - Left arm is parallel with the ground starting the forward swing
P6 - Shaft is parallel with the ground before impact (sometimes called delivery position)
P7 - Impact
P8 - Right arm is parallel with the ground after impact
P9 - Shaft is parallel with the ground and is nearing the finish
P10 - Finish position and the swing is complete
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Post by natep on Dec 7, 2010 2:41:24 GMT -5
Ringer was nice enough to post this summary a while back: P1 - Setup P2 - Shaft is parallel with the ground P3 - Left arm is parallel with the ground P4 - Top of the backswing P5 - Left arm is parallel with the ground starting the forward swing P6 - Shaft is parallel with the ground before impact (sometimes called delivery position) P7 - Impact P8 - Right arm is parallel with the ground after impact P9 - Shaft is parallel with the ground and is nearing the finish P10 - Finish position and the swing is complete Great! Thanks again! |
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Post by Richie3Jack on Dec 7, 2010 8:09:42 GMT -5
I guess Rob Neal had his biomechanics wrong then, rohlio....... He said you couldn't do anything other than 90 to the top of the spine I don't think it has anything to do with being wrong, it's perhaps more to do with seeing how Mr. Neal and whomever define the terms. For instance, yesterday I was listening to a radio show where they had participants take an IQ test. One of the people on the show was accused of cheating by somebody who had a source saying that this person cheated. The person accused of cheating was flabberghasted and explained that he didn't cheat. The accuser said that his source told him he cheated. The person accused then explained that all he did was ask a friend who was a professor some tips about the IQ test and wanted to see the format (he didn't see any questions or answers). Then the accuser said that is what his source told him and that his source considered that to be cheating. But the testers said that no, that was not cheating. The problem is that since Mr. Neal isn't here, we cannot either come to a consensus in how we define this or have Mr. Neal or whomever refute each other's claims. 3JACK |
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Post by michaelfinney on Dec 7, 2010 10:27:22 GMT -5
i'm sure it's semantics.......richie, check out neal in segment 3, i think....
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Post by Ringer on Dec 7, 2010 12:33:02 GMT -5
Rohlio, perhaps he's talking about the pure rotational movement. Shrug one shoulder up, now turn. It's still going to turn in a "circle" and the center of that circle is still the spine... just that the two shoulders won't be tracing the same circle. If that's the way he's thinking, then fine, but I'm not sure that's in the spirit of the question or what Richie was after when he asked. I think that's precisely the distinction that should be made more. They rotate 90 degrees to the top of the spine, but not necessarily on the same plane. |
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