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Post by golfdad on Jan 5, 2012 7:08:02 GMT -5
swing left...what a fuzzy phraseology! I remember seeing this term used and asked specifically on another site. I asked specifically if that means aiming/aligning left and I was told,,,NO, that swinging left is not the same as aiming left. Since I don't play golf, I guess I must be missing something. And there JM was indeed aiming left to swing left. Question: is that the accepted way of swinging left or is there another way to swing left? With a Trackman right there, being a highly reputed teacher, why not demonstrate more convincingly by first not swinging left and then swinging left to show the difference? Probably not easy to do in one take (another matter thingy deleted:)
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 5, 2012 9:24:58 GMT -5
swing left...what a fuzzy phraseology! I remember seeing this term used and asked specifically on another site. I asked specifically if that means aiming/aligning left and I was told,,,NO, that swinging left is not the same as aiming left. Since I don't play golf, I guess I must be missing something. And there JM was indeed aiming left to swing left. Question: is that the accepted way of swinging left or is there another way to swing left? With a Trackman right there, being a highly reputed teacher, why not demonstrate more convincingly by first not swinging left and then swinging left to show the difference? Probably not easy to do in one take on another matter, I tend to think that often it may not be a great idea for an inventor to openly entertain questions and concerns in public on his baby. More likely than that, what is said or not said can be easily misconstrued. IMO, his most vocal challengers can be his more helpful advocates, but in this day and age, we tend to think any thinking or understanding not to our liking is a direct assault to our bottom line. Interesting timing.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 5, 2012 9:26:16 GMT -5
swing left...what a fuzzy phraseology! I remember seeing this term used and asked specifically on another site. I asked specifically if that means aiming/aligning left and I was told,,,NO, that swinging left is not the same as aiming left. Since I don't play golf, I guess I must be missing something. And there JM was indeed aiming left to swing left. Question: is that the accepted way of swinging left or is there another way to swing left? With a Trackman right there, being a highly reputed teacher, why not demonstrate more convincingly by first not swinging left and then swinging left to show the difference? Probably not easy to do in one take I always thought you could do both procedures, you could aim a plane line left of the ball target line, or that you could shift the baseline with your swing so that it became left of the ball target line.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 5, 2012 9:35:38 GMT -5
swing left...what a fuzzy phraseology! I remember seeing this term used and asked specifically on another site. I asked specifically if that means aiming/aligning left and I was told,,,NO, that swinging left is not the same as aiming left. Since I don't play golf, I guess I must be missing something. And there JM was indeed aiming left to swing left. Question: is that the accepted way of swinging left or is there another way to swing left? With a Trackman right there, being a highly reputed teacher, why not demonstrate more convincingly by first not swinging left and then swinging left to show the difference? Probably not easy to do in one take on another matter, I tend to think that often it may not be a great idea for an inventor to openly entertain questions and concerns in public on his baby. More likely than that, what is said or not said can be easily misconstrued. IMO, his most vocal challengers can be his more helpful advocates, but in this day and age, we tend to think any thinking or understanding not to our liking is a direct assault to our bottom line. Swinging left feels like an over the top move to someone who's path is in to out. Most people who go on Trackman are very, very surprised how far left (or over the top is the feeling) they must swing to zero out (get a 0 reading for the club path) for their club path. Very easy to do if you have a feedback device like Trackman to hone in the left part. Go try it if you have access to it. Explaining it with words isn't anywhere near the experience. I have a decent swing and when I first went on Trackman my path was in to out by 5-6*. That's way too much but it felt normal. The term is imprecise but you need feedback to get the left part right. Please folks, not flaming this thread about the drawback/accuracy of Trackman. I'm just trying to answer this question and the term relates to use from Trackman.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 5, 2012 10:01:19 GMT -5
Swinging left to me is basically staying 'on plane' into follow through.
If you want to hit it dead straight at the target, 'swinging left' with the irons will result in the bottom arc of the swing (the deepest part of the divot), pointing left of the target. This will also mean that the path will be square to the target.
I think 'swinging left' can be misinterpreted too easily since it's rather ambiguous in nature.
Personally, I look more at the bottom arc of the swing. So, we could replace the terminology of 'swinging left' with 'bottom arc left.' And again, it's really more or less about 'staying on plane' after impact to help ensure the path is square to the target.
Here's an example of a 'bottom arc left' swing.
Here's an example of a golfer who 'swings out to the right.' This would produce a bottom arc that is either square to the target or right of the target. And consequently, a path that is to the right of the target (and sometimes extremely to the right of the target).
From what I've been told, the S&T people prefer a bottom arc square to the target and a path that is +2 to +4* to the right of the target, which will typically result in a draw spin.
But, if they want to hit a fade, they just alter their stance and clubface at address so their body and clubface is aimed different at address and they can hit a 'push-fade' towards the target.
3JACK
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Post by golfdad on Jan 5, 2012 10:08:35 GMT -5
Interesting stuff guys and thanks for the feedback.
So there are really not right or wrong answers to this, I guess. One one side, one needs to "modify" the swing, on the other, modify alignment.
Since I don't play,,,don't you guys think it is easier to keep the "same" swing but just vary the alignment angle based on your understanding of each club's tendency?
Otherwise, I think it is so much more subtle to adjust from one "left" swing to a slight more "left" swing between 2 clubs.
Hey cwd: this came to mind. What if you put 2 ball next to each other on the mat and you hit them both at the same time, say, with a 3 wood...how will trackman react to that situation?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 5, 2012 10:17:48 GMT -5
Swinging left is not mandatory. In fact, if you have an over the top move in your golf swing, swinging left probably is the exact opposite of what you want to do.
Swinging left has usually been reserved for the low to mid handicapper who struggles with an underplane hook.
How much one needs to 'swing left' in order to have a square path, from a Trackman standpoint, is dependent upon.
- Attack Angle - Vertical swing plane
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 5, 2012 10:21:03 GMT -5
Hey cwd: this came to mind. What if you put 2 ball next to each other on the mat and you hit them both at the same time, say, with a 3 wood...how will trackman react to that situation?
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 5, 2012 10:22:13 GMT -5
Swinging left is not mandatory. In fact, if you have an over the top move in your golf swing, swinging left probably is the exact opposite of what you want to do. Swinging left has usually been reserved for the low to mid handicapper who struggles with an underplane hook. How much one needs to 'swing left' in order to have a square path, from a Trackman standpoint, is dependent upon. - Attack Angle - Vertical swing plane 3JACK Yup, Though a bunch of people started trying it when it was suggested you should be doing it, wonder how it worked out.
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Post by golfdad on Jan 5, 2012 10:23:01 GMT -5
Hey cwd: this came to mind. What if you put 2 ball next to each other on the mat and you hit them both at the same time, say, with a 3 wood...how will trackman react to that situation? at least that's how i feel about swinging left:) you guys are not golfers but mad scientists! haha
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 5, 2012 10:31:03 GMT -5
Swinging left is not mandatory. In fact, if you have an over the top move in your golf swing, swinging left probably is the exact opposite of what you want to do. Swinging left has usually been reserved for the low to mid handicapper who struggles with an underplane hook. How much one needs to 'swing left' in order to have a square path, from a Trackman standpoint, is dependent upon. - Attack Angle - Vertical swing plane 3JACK Agree 100%. The reason I'm so much of a fan about Trackman is that it gives me impact feedback and what I feel isn't always real. I hooked the ball for years and the hooks caused me to quit playing golf in College. Think Ian Baker Finch collapse. I never knew my path was so much in to out until I went on Trackman. Then I was shocked at how far left I had to swing to zero it out (feels like an over the top move for me). The confidence I have knowing what happens at impact has made me a much better player and I can now break par with regularity. I still have blowup holes, but I'm not crippled by fear about a duck hook. Fine line, but even Tiger knows that taking a swing from the range to the course is hard. Beginners do NOT need to worry about swinging left. The more ballspeed you have the more you need to match your face angle and path to have a playable shot. My ballspeed with a driver is 160-165 mph so if there's greater than 3-4* between my path and face angle that shot will be in the trees off the tee. I can't imagine the tolerance needed for ballspeeds over 180+ mph. No idea about the two ball test. Bad feedback analysis = bad golf. We can get better much quicker if we have good feedback about our golf swings.
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Post by golfdad on Jan 5, 2012 10:43:53 GMT -5
Since you guys by now with the new ball flight law in mind--esp if you have gotten feedback from swinging in front of Trackman-- have a good idea how much left you have to swing each club in order to zero out, my confusion is that why not simply make alignment adjustment according to each club but keep the similar swing? To me the latter is much more doable,,more science than the former which is more art. I know art sounds more sexy than science and that everyone is a born an artist, but please:)
Remain confused and not yet fully convinced:)
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 5, 2012 10:48:01 GMT -5
I normally don't aim parallel left with my body. I play a draw or pull draw. My brain doesn't like straight shots under pressure. I know how to hit them, but you have to find out the shot your brain likes under pressure and go from there. I try to play golf as an art and let my mind be free. If you get too focused on the mechancics you lose fluidity in your swing which is deadly.
Range play and course play is still a big divide.
See if you can hit balls on a Trackman. I didn't believe this stuff either until I saw the results.
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Post by willgolfer on Jan 5, 2012 10:58:46 GMT -5
swing left...what a fuzzy phraseology! I remember seeing this term used and asked specifically on another site. I asked specifically if that means aiming/aligning left and I was told,,,NO, that swinging left is not the same as aiming left. Since I don't play golf, I guess I must be missing something. And there JM was indeed aiming left to swing left. Question: is that the accepted way of swinging left or is there another way to swing left? With a Trackman right there, being a highly reputed teacher, why not demonstrate more convincingly by first not swinging left and then swinging left to show the difference? Probably not easy to do in one take (another matter thingy deleted:) Most people who try to swing left have dont have much idea what they're doing. You can "swing left" by coming over the top and produce zeros on trackman all day long and still be a terribly inconsistent ballstriker. I believe the real way to swing left is the way the guys like Hogan, Toms, Furyk, Peete, mahan, allenby, duval from the 90s swung. The way those guys swung left involved approaching the ball from a relatively deep and shallow position, and then using body rotation combined with the arms packed tight to the body which rips the handle of the club to the left through impact, and from a dtl view the hands would disappearing post impact while the clubhead would still be in view. This is a very reliable way to swing/release the club, because you will have control over the face and a slower rate of clubface closure through impact, just coming over the top to swing left enough to produce zeros on trackman is not the way to go about it in my opinion.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 5, 2012 11:07:00 GMT -5
The only way you'll be terribly inconsistent if you have a consistent zero path number is due to inconsistent face angle. Producing a zero path number means you're well on your way to striking the ball well since there are two big variables (path and face angle) that determine ballflight. (Of course there are others, but face angle and path are the big ones). Its much easier to fix your path than your face angle in my opinion. Controlling the face angle consistently is hard. Why? Because the club face is coming through impact very quickly (90-100 mph+ for most with a driver) and that takes practice and good timing to keep consistent.
Consistentcy is the key. If you can consistently produce the same number, even if it's a little wacked out, you can aim accordingly and get the ball in play. My face angle is consistently closed by 4* and my path close to zero. That's not good on paper, but it works for me on the course because it's consistent.
Golf is hard because of so many moving parts that must match up to get a playable miss.
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