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Post by jeffy on Nov 21, 2012 16:57:16 GMT -5
Manzella posted some TaylorMade MATT data of an unnamed tour player that confirms EXACTLY what you have been saying about torso rotation: after an initial acceleration and deceleration, the player's torso accelerates through impact and peaks after impact:    He also posted data for Dustin Johnson, who also accelerates his torso into impact:    One question, though, about Dustin. Why does his torso rotation jump up and down like a yo-yo??? Is that reality or a glitch in the MATT system??? Jeff |
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Post by tba on Nov 21, 2012 19:24:40 GMT -5
That's good if you wear your pants so the belt line is just under your arm pits then you can have both the torso and the belt loops and the players badge all accelerating!!!
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Post by tba on Nov 21, 2012 19:32:12 GMT -5
If the matt system is no good for some things and the reflective markers are an issue why is it a vindication of another thing? i.e. torso rotation.
It's either good or it's not good can't pick and choose what you like and don't like in the results unless of course you have a reason to.
Lets assume the results are accurate what is the torso accelerating prove? In one of the examples the torso slows down after impact and in the other it accelerates after impact and in the one that torso accelerates after impact that golfer is the shorter hitter, what does that mean?
Also the hips are decelerating and the lead arm as the club accelerates, what does that mean? Is that an indication of the distal to proximal theory?
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Post by jeffy on Nov 21, 2012 20:37:06 GMT -5
If the matt system is no good for some things and the reflective markers are an issue why is it a vindication of another thing? i.e. torso rotation.
It's either good or it's not good can't pick and choose what you like and don't like in the results unless of course you have a reason to. There are good and bad things about every measurement system. You just have to take both into account when evaluating the data. For example, the right shoulder of the MATT humanoid is higher than the real Dustin Johnson. The reason is simple: it doesn't see what the player's shoulder tips are doing because there are no markers there. So don't rely on the MATT rendering as an accurate depiction of the player's body positions. Look at video instead. On the other hand, the MATT system probably measures the x, y and z coordinates of the markers very accurately. That is why people use them. That Manzella, Cheetham, Zenolink and others who insist it doesn't happen in tour level players are mistaken and need to revise their "distal to proximate" theory. They have a bunch of students out there slowing down body parts and it may not be helping them. Both players had the same lead arm and club angular velocity, so it sounds to me like one was physically shorter than the other and had a shorter radius. I can't think of any other reason why they would have significantly different clubhead speeds with identical club angular velocities, can you? Anyhow, Tapio was hounded out of Manzella's forum for his heresy and Manzella's own data now shows that Tapio was right. Hooray for Tapio! Jeff |
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Post by tba on Nov 21, 2012 20:54:33 GMT -5
I see the markers on the matt system are on the back of the shoulders lower down and you have drawn a yellow line higher up than where they would draw a similiar lne, Shouldn't the line be drawn through where the markers are located? That would account for your line looking steeper than their shoulders appear as you drew the line where they have no markers and thus they would have no info at that point.
Was tapio hounded because of this issue? I don't remember seeing this at that time, i thought it had to do more with the infamous p.f. issue and if that opened the face to the arc or path, etc. that debate, with bman making a couple of videos on it.
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Post by tba on Nov 21, 2012 21:00:48 GMT -5
I don't think it changes anything in relation to the club accelerating as the lead arm and hips decel, it's still from the ground up imo. That is still distal to proximal, you think it's the opposite?
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Post by jeffy on Nov 21, 2012 21:01:23 GMT -5
I see the markers on the matt system are on the back of the shoulders lower down and you have drawn a yellow line higher up than where they would draw a similiar lne, Shouldn't the line be drawn through where the markers are located? That would account for your line looking steeper than their shoulders appear as you drew the line where they have no markers and thus they would have no info at that point. That's my whole point: the shoulder tips have range of motion not captured by markers on the back of the shoulders. That's why from face-on Dustin's actual shoulders look steeper than in the model. What are you going to believe? A picture of Dustin Johnson or a picture of a model based on 28 markers? Yep, Tapio even made a joke about the "accelerating shoulders" controversy in a post here just the other day. That was the big issue over there. |
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Post by jeffy on Nov 21, 2012 21:02:50 GMT -5
That's good if you wear your pants so the belt line is just under your arm pits then you can have both the torso and the belt loops and the players badge all accelerating!!! Makes it much easier to track with video that way! |
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Post by tba on Nov 21, 2012 21:05:37 GMT -5
I see the markers on the matt system are on the back of the shoulders lower down and you have drawn a yellow line higher up than where they would draw a similiar lne, Shouldn't the line be drawn through where the markers are located? That would account for your line looking steeper than their shoulders appear as you drew the line where they have no markers and thus they would have no info at that point. That's my whole point: the shoulder tips have range of motion not captured by markers on the back of the shoulders. That's why from face-on Dustin's actual shoulders look steeper than in the model. What are you going to believe? A picture of Dustin Johnson or a picture of a model based on 28 markers? Yep, Tapio even made a joke about the "accelerating shoulders" controversy in a post here just the other day. That was the big issue over there. Draw a line in the same spot as the markers on the matt system on D.J.'s picture and then compare them to the humanoid and then we can see if they are still different. I must have missed that as the reason for him getting banned, I would have to go back and check it out. |
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Post by tba on Nov 21, 2012 21:06:58 GMT -5
That's good if you wear your pants so the belt line is just under your arm pits then you can have both the torso and the belt loops and the players badge all accelerating!!! Makes it much easier to track with video that way! Yeah but it's a lot more uncomfortable to play that way.  |
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Post by jeffy on Nov 21, 2012 23:27:11 GMT -5
And the hits keep coming!!! This is the third MATT analysis Bman has posted and in this one the torso ACCELERATES through impact and peaks post-impact. Another confirmation for Tapio!!! Three for three!   Just hours ago, Bman said that it had been proven "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that the torso decels prior to impact. Time to revisit that theory... |
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Post by jeffy on Nov 21, 2012 23:46:21 GMT -5
That's my whole point: the shoulder tips have range of motion not captured by markers on the back of the shoulders. That's why from face-on Dustin's actual shoulders look steeper than in the model. What are you going to believe? A picture of Dustin Johnson or a picture of a model based on 28 markers? Yep, Tapio even made a joke about the "accelerating shoulders" controversy in a post here just the other day. That was the big issue over there. I must have missed that as the reason for him getting banned, I would have to go back and check it out. Why would they be different? |
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Post by teeace on Nov 21, 2012 23:46:59 GMT -5
I have known all the time real reason why he banned me, as well you ;D
Too many truths.... he didn't like.
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Post by teeace on Nov 21, 2012 23:56:42 GMT -5
If the matt system is no good for some things and the reflective markers are an issue why is it a vindication of another thing? i.e. torso rotation. It's either good or it's not good can't pick and choose what you like and don't like in the results unless of course you have a reason to. Lets assume the results are accurate what is the torso accelerating prove? In one of the examples the torso slows down after impact and in the other it accelerates after impact and in the one that torso accelerates after impact that golfer is the shorter hitter, what does that mean? Also the hips are decelerating and the lead arm as the club accelerates, what does that mean? Is that an indication of the distal to proximal theory? What the heck... Two years ago TPI people said to me in Orlando "Don't show that" when I told and showed graphs about that acceleration. They said it's not like that. I proved it from top down camera and there was a quiet moment after that... a long one. One year ago The Hatt told me that we are the first instance who proved what they always knew. I can't understand your post about this as I can't see any doubt about this thing as I have been measured hundreds of players and it's so obvious. I agree that MATT is not the best to measure that, as we got it more detailed and in sync with video, but MATT is still getting it right. |
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Post by teeace on Nov 22, 2012 0:16:08 GMT -5
What really happened with BMan, that PF thing was only the top of it. I wasn't too kind and explained many things where he was right but where his logic was totally wrong and by that he gave totally wrong idea for people... it's quite a list including out toss, normal, deceleration and hand path vs club head path. I took some of their posts to my computer and just wait when they, after maybe few years, publish the same information, because if they do any serious research, they gonna find it. Like he found that PF/ bowing is closing the club face and he proudly presents it in his video  I'm not evil guy, but gonna enjoy that day when I show I told it to them years ago  |
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