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Post by kamandi on Feb 1, 2013 1:08:38 GMT -5
So I was researching pitch & punch elbows, read Richie's blog article to really understand them more, then I started checking out some Hogan videos, as I always assumed he did pitch elbow. In some swings, though, it seemed like his right elbow was at the right of his hip instead of in front, but the motion still seemed to be pitch elbow. I came across a video from Gotham Golf video, which starts off with a punch elbow swing by Rory, and a pitch elbow swing by Robert. I wasn't too interested in the explanations, as it was a lot about what Tiger was doing wrong, etc., but the 2 sample swings showed the clear differences. Then I came across a very interesting article by Jeffy, which started off explaining what Hardy thought of Hogan's Power Golf and aftet swings, and how it influenced his one plane theory, and what Jeffy categorized more into the pre and post accident swings, and Hogan's elbow positions on both. jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?194-Jim-Hardy-Ben-Hogan-quot-Power-Golf-quot-and-the-Right-Elbow&s=b2acbf1ca572c9622b8a9145ed1c3923Any thoughts? |
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Post by playa on Feb 1, 2013 11:48:46 GMT -5
I look at it this way: Bottom line of a golf swing: stable wrist complex into impact. To achieve that, an anatomically favorable position must be accomplished by a joint more proximal to the right wrist, namely, the right elbow. In other words, how the right wrist functions into impact is to some degree predetermined by the anatomical position of the right elbow. A pitched right bow promotes a more stable, extended right wrist, aka, the lag holds onto itself naturally longer. Similarly, a punched right elbow promotes a wrist release because anatomically and physiologically speaking, the force from a punched right elbow sends distally a throwing, releasing motion, to the right wrist joint. Often, someone with a punched right elbow needs to fight to hold onto the "lag", whereas the pitched elbow person cannot wait to fire and release the club. There is no "holding". The forward lean contact is the result of a chain reaction from a good setup Forget about what the superstars end up doing after years of finding their own ways. IF there is a fresh beginner, preferably a young person with no preconception--better yet, no internet access-- to me, the best way to go forward is to encourage a pitched right elbow, based on the reasoning given above. Can punched elbow folks play great golf? Sure. But my opinion is that there is an easier, more anatomically sensible way to go about it as well. I give Jeffy and Kelvin a lot of credit diving into topics like this. Esoteric to many, but in this world, god is in the often tedious details. In Jeffy's stellar post on this topic, one section stands out. He sent Kelvin before and after photos of Hogan and asked Kelvin for opinion as to why the difference in location of right elbow. Kelvin's answer is the key. So what is the key? Well, I am not saying. Don't be lazy and go read it yourself!  Just kidding. Here is my paraphrase. Kelvin, unlike many others would have done, pointed out perhaps it is the lower limb functional differences that attribute to the elbow location differences. In other words, to someone like Hogan, who has honed his right elbow move for years and unlikely to have lost it due to a car accident, may have done nothing differently with his upper body move and instead slowed down his hip rotation after the accident. Or sequenced better, in my opinion, somehow. This answer to me makes a lot of sense and highly likely to be the rational, correct, answer. There is another thread somewhere asking about timing and sequencing. In my opinion, everything is tied in and everything affects everything. Right wrist function is influenced by right elbow function is influenced by upper body function is influenced by lower body function, and so on, more or less. In the case of Hogan, judging by those photos in Jeffy post, we can argue that his pre and post accident impact are different based on those pre impact photos showing different right elbow locations. Therefore, we can further argue that in the pre accident days --assuming that photo is representative enough--his right wrist release would have more of a timing element to it, therefore, tougher to manage club face squaring. So, on a bigger picture relevant to those still breathing, here is my question: is it easier for you to learn to time or sequence your bigger muscle, bigger bone, bigger joint action or is it easier to time the wrist release in the hundreds of a second? To me the former is much easier to teach and to learn. |
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Post by rj on Feb 1, 2013 12:11:27 GMT -5
So I was researching pitch & punch elbows, read Richie's blog article to really understand them more, then I started checking out some Hogan videos, as I always assumed he did pitch elbow. In some swings, though, it seemed like his right elbow was at the right of his hip instead of in front, but the motion still seemed to be pitch elbow. I came across a video from Gotham Golf video, which starts off with a punch elbow swing by Rory, and a pitch elbow swing by Robert. I wasn't too interested in the explanations, as it was a lot about what Tiger was doing wrong, etc., but the 2 sample swings showed the clear differences. Then I came across a very interesting article by Jeffy, which started off explaining what Hardy thought of Hogan's Power Golf and aftet swings, and how it influenced his one plane theory, and what Jeffy categorized more into the pre and post accident swings, and Hogan's elbow positions on both. jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?194-Jim-Hardy-Ben-Hogan-quot-Power-Golf-quot-and-the-Right-Elbow&s=b2acbf1ca572c9622b8a9145ed1c3923Any thoughts? There could be a simple answer like maybe Hogan was just hitting different shots which put the elbow in a different position |
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 1, 2013 13:32:52 GMT -5
Not to sound arrogant, but this forum likes detailed and thorough answers.
Great job, playa.
3JACK
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Post by rj on Feb 1, 2013 13:42:36 GMT -5
Not to sound too simple but sometimes there is a less complicated answer to what someone see's in a picture or a video. Who knows what Hogan was doing at those moments, and I was just commenting on that not the whole aspect of punch or pitch.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 1, 2013 15:13:29 GMT -5
Pitch elbow is more conducive to a CP release and 'swinging left' while punch elbow is more conducive to CF and swinging out to the right.
I know that *most* Stack and Tilt people like the punch elbow because *most* of them prefer CF. I think CF is much easier to execute. However, I prefer the performance that CP gives.
One of the concepts that Homer Kelley didn't quite get correct, but I really love is the Endless Belt Concept (2-K).
With pitch elbow, the #2 Power Accumulator releases later. That creates more acceleration as the 'belt' gets tighter as Kelley described. With punch elbow, the #2 PA is released earlier. Acceleration is less.
That's why guys like Tom Wishon check that when fitting shafts and Wishon's S2S shaft fitting system asks the user to plug in when the wrists un-cock in the downswing. The later the wrist-cock in the downswing, the more acceleration and generally a stiffer tip section you want in the shaft.
Of course, clubhead speed IS a factor in shaft fitting. And clubhead speed is different from acceleration. You can have pitch elbow with more acceleration, but far less clubhead speed.
But, part of where we start running into making decisions about pitch versus punch is what type of attack angle and dynamic loft we want.
Generally pitch has a steeper attack angle and lower dynamic loft.
That's why teachers like Grant Waite don't like pitch elbow.
At the Open Forum at the PGA Show, virtually all of the Trackman people and people affiliated with Trackman believed that every golfer should hit up on the driver. That would generally mean more of a punch elbow.
I can't quite agree with their assertion. That being said, and while I do have my disagreements with people like Manzella, he is a teacher who has logged countless hours of lessons on Trackman and he has more practical experience working with students than I do.
My feelings are more numbers based.
Generally speaking, hitting down too much on the driver is a bad thing for players on Tour. However, hitting up too much on the driver has shown to be a problem for Tour players as well.
From the numbers perspective, my analysis is that hitting up on the driver cost Vaughn Taylor his chance of keeping his Tour Card. He didn't hit nearly enough fairways and that hurt his driving effectiveness. He also couldn't avoid the Danger Zone. He was great out of the fairway with his irons from all distances, but was in the rough too much. He would have been better off with a flatter attack angle and finding more fairways and letting his iron play, short game and putting do the work. From crunching the numbers, Taylor was a guy that could easily made the top-75 on the Money List last year. And had he stopped hitting up on the driver a while ago, he probably would have never lost his card to begin with and gotten into more big purse events.
I think hitting up on the driver absolutely destroyed any chance Martin Piller had in 2011. His accuracy and precision was flat out abysmal.
To me, the driver is really designed for a 'flat attack angle.' I don't think it's really designed for an upward hit. If you can do it and do it well, then there's probably a bit of real talent that goes with it. And if you can do it well, great...keep doing it.
I just think that golfers need to find whatever they can do consistently the best. Particularly amateurs. At the Open Forum the question was posed as to what you would do with a golfer with 85 mph clubhead speed and how hitting up would help them gain distance.
The problem is that they look at only the good strikes where the ball goes further than normal because they are hitting up. As I mentioned in 2012 Pro Golf Synopsis as the handicap gets higher, the more important driving becomes in shooting lower scores and lowering the handicap because higher handicaps have so much variance and deviation in their driving.
That's not only from a directional standpoint, but from a distance standpoint. A 20 handicapper may hit one 250 yards on one drive, then 100 yards on the next drive and then 190 on the next.
Now...I tend to think that the higher handicaps tend to have a steep attack angle with the driver so shallowing that out is helpful.
BUT, the real key is getting them to make more consistent contact so there is not so much direction AND distance variance from tee shot to tee shot. In other words, if I had a situation where a golfer could consistently hit 225 yard drives with a flat attack angle and have much improved directional control....I would take that over the golfer who hits up and occasionally hits drives 245 yards but still struggles with distance and directional consistency.
As Moe Norman discussed many times...this game is really about advancing the ball towards the cup.
My personal feeling is that if you start hitting more and more upward, you're more likely to lose some clubhead speed.
Why?
You're more likely to have to get into punch elbow and the clubhead can't quite accelerate and assist in you getting speed.
I think what has happened is that the equipment has changed and that has changed what one can possibly do with their swing mechanics.
You are more apt to see pitch elbow in the older swings like Hogan than in the modern swings.
My reasoning is that with persimmon, it was much riskier to hit up on the ball and much riskier to try and have a big CF release ala Rickie Fowler. With oversized titanium, you can get away with the big CF release.
Look at the older swings of the truly great ballstrikers of the past. Almost all of them either CP'd or they CF'd but barely did it and was more 'CF inline' ala Nicklaus.
IIRC, Tommy Aaron was a big CF release and I looked at his driving statistics in the early 1980's and they were pretty bad.
I think that's a big reason for Hogan using pitch elbow. The equipment back then almost forced it upon you if you wanted to strike it great. And from looking at the metrics going only back to 1980...the Tour was more about how well you drove the ball and hit your longer approaches than it was about putting. Probably because the rough was longer back then and greens weren't nearly as smooth. I couldn't imagine what it was like in the 40's thru the 60's.
3JACK
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Post by playa on Feb 1, 2013 16:28:50 GMT -5
Pitch elbow is more conducive to a CP release and 'swinging left' while punch elbow is more conducive to CF and swinging out to the right. I know that *most* Stack and Tilt people like the punch elbow because *most* of them prefer CF. I think CF is much easier to execute. However, I prefer the performance that CP gives. One of the concepts that Homer Kelley didn't quite get correct, but I really love is the Endless Belt Concept (2-K). With pitch elbow, the #2 Power Accumulator releases later. That creates more acceleration as the 'belt' gets tighter as Kelley described. With punch elbow, the #2 PA is released earlier. Acceleration is less. That's why guys like Tom Wishon check that when fitting shafts and Wishon's S2S shaft fitting system asks the user to plug in when the wrists un-cock in the downswing. The later the wrist-cock in the downswing, the more acceleration and generally a stiffer tip section you want in the shaft. Of course, clubhead speed IS a factor in shaft fitting. And clubhead speed is different from acceleration. You can have pitch elbow with more acceleration, but far less clubhead speed. But, part of where we start running into making decisions about pitch versus punch is what type of attack angle and dynamic loft we want. Generally pitch has a steeper attack angle and lower dynamic loft. That's why teachers like Grant Waite don't like pitch elbow. At the Open Forum at the PGA Show, virtually all of the Trackman people and people affiliated with Trackman believed that every golfer should hit up on the driver. That would generally mean more of a punch elbow. I can't quite agree with their assertion. That being said, and while I do have my disagreements with people like Manzella, he is a teacher who has logged countless hours of lessons on Trackman and he has more practical experience working with students than I do. My feelings are more numbers based. Generally speaking, hitting down too much on the driver is a bad thing for players on Tour. However, hitting up too much on the driver has shown to be a problem for Tour players as well. From the numbers perspective, my analysis is that hitting up on the driver cost Vaughn Taylor his chance of keeping his Tour Card. He didn't hit nearly enough fairways and that hurt his driving effectiveness. He also couldn't avoid the Danger Zone. He was great out of the fairway with his irons from all distances, but was in the rough too much. He would have been better off with a flatter attack angle and finding more fairways and letting his iron play, short game and putting do the work. From crunching the numbers, Taylor was a guy that could easily made the top-75 on the Money List last year. And had he stopped hitting up on the driver a while ago, he probably would have never lost his card to begin with and gotten into more big purse events. I think hitting up on the driver absolutely destroyed any chance Martin Piller had in 2011. His accuracy and precision was flat out abysmal. To me, the driver is really designed for a 'flat attack angle.' I don't think it's really designed for an upward hit. If you can do it and do it well, then there's probably a bit of real talent that goes with it. And if you can do it well, great...keep doing it. I just think that golfers need to find whatever they can do consistently the best. Particularly amateurs. At the Open Forum the question was posed as to what you would do with a golfer with 85 mph clubhead speed and how hitting up would help them gain distance. The problem is that they look at only the good strikes where the ball goes further than normal because they are hitting up. As I mentioned in 2012 Pro Golf Synopsis as the handicap gets higher, the more important driving becomes in shooting lower scores and lowering the handicap because higher handicaps have so much variance and deviation in their driving. That's not only from a directional standpoint, but from a distance standpoint. A 20 handicapper may hit one 250 yards on one drive, then 100 yards on the next drive and then 190 on the next. Now...I tend to think that the higher handicaps tend to have a steep attack angle with the driver so shallowing that out is helpful. BUT, the real key is getting them to make more consistent contact so there is not so much direction AND distance variance from tee shot to tee shot. In other words, if I had a situation where a golfer could consistently hit 225 yard drives with a flat attack angle and have much improved directional control....I would take that over the golfer who hits up and occasionally hits drives 245 yards but still struggles with distance and directional consistency. As Moe Norman discussed many times...this game is really about advancing the ball towards the cup. My personal feeling is that if you start hitting more and more upward, you're more likely to lose some clubhead speed. Why? You're more likely to have to get into punch elbow and the clubhead can't quite accelerate and assist in you getting speed. I think what has happened is that the equipment has changed and that has changed what one can possibly do with their swing mechanics. You are more apt to see pitch elbow in the older swings like Hogan than in the modern swings. My reasoning is that with persimmon, it was much riskier to hit up on the ball and much riskier to try and have a big CF release ala Rickie Fowler. With oversized titanium, you can get away with the big CF release. Look at the older swings of the truly great ballstrikers of the past. Almost all of them either CP'd or they CF'd but barely did it and was more 'CF inline' ala Nicklaus. IIRC, Tommy Aaron was a big CF release and I looked at his driving statistics in the early 1980's and they were pretty bad. I think that's a big reason for Hogan using pitch elbow. The equipment back then almost forced it upon you if you wanted to strike it great. And from looking at the metrics going only back to 1980...the Tour was more about how well you drove the ball and hit your longer approaches than it was about putting. Probably because the rough was longer back then and greens weren't nearly as smooth. I couldn't imagine what it was like in the 40's thru the 60's. 3JACK Excellent. What is your experience with or feeling on keeping pinched elbow but varying ball position and spine tilt at address to promote an upward-ish impact? |
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Post by virtuoso on Feb 1, 2013 16:32:48 GMT -5
Pitch elbow is more conducive to a CP release and 'swinging left' while punch elbow is more conducive to CF and swinging out to the right. I know that *most* Stack and Tilt people like the punch elbow because *most* of them prefer CF. I think CF is much easier to execute. However, I prefer the performance that CP gives. One of the concepts that Homer Kelley didn't quite get correct, but I really love is the Endless Belt Concept (2-K). With pitch elbow, the #2 Power Accumulator releases later. That creates more acceleration as the 'belt' gets tighter as Kelley described. With punch elbow, the #2 PA is released earlier. Acceleration is less. That's why guys like Tom Wishon check that when fitting shafts and Wishon's S2S shaft fitting system asks the user to plug in when the wrists un-cock in the downswing. The later the wrist-cock in the downswing, the more acceleration and generally a stiffer tip section you want in the shaft. Of course, clubhead speed IS a factor in shaft fitting. And clubhead speed is different from acceleration. You can have pitch elbow with more acceleration, but far less clubhead speed. But, part of where we start running into making decisions about pitch versus punch is what type of attack angle and dynamic loft we want. Generally pitch has a steeper attack angle and lower dynamic loft. That's why teachers like Grant Waite don't like pitch elbow. At the Open Forum at the PGA Show, virtually all of the Trackman people and people affiliated with Trackman believed that every golfer should hit up on the driver. That would generally mean more of a punch elbow. I can't quite agree with their assertion. That being said, and while I do have my disagreements with people like Manzella, he is a teacher who has logged countless hours of lessons on Trackman and he has more practical experience working with students than I do. My feelings are more numbers based. Generally speaking, hitting down too much on the driver is a bad thing for players on Tour. However, hitting up too much on the driver has shown to be a problem for Tour players as well. From the numbers perspective, my analysis is that hitting up on the driver cost Vaughn Taylor his chance of keeping his Tour Card. He didn't hit nearly enough fairways and that hurt his driving effectiveness. He also couldn't avoid the Danger Zone. He was great out of the fairway with his irons from all distances, but was in the rough too much. He would have been better off with a flatter attack angle and finding more fairways and letting his iron play, short game and putting do the work. From crunching the numbers, Taylor was a guy that could easily made the top-75 on the Money List last year. And had he stopped hitting up on the driver a while ago, he probably would have never lost his card to begin with and gotten into more big purse events. I think hitting up on the driver absolutely destroyed any chance Martin Piller had in 2011. His accuracy and precision was flat out abysmal. To me, the driver is really designed for a 'flat attack angle.' I don't think it's really designed for an upward hit. If you can do it and do it well, then there's probably a bit of real talent that goes with it. And if you can do it well, great...keep doing it. I just think that golfers need to find whatever they can do consistently the best. Particularly amateurs. At the Open Forum the question was posed as to what you would do with a golfer with 85 mph clubhead speed and how hitting up would help them gain distance. The problem is that they look at only the good strikes where the ball goes further than normal because they are hitting up. As I mentioned in 2012 Pro Golf Synopsis as the handicap gets higher, the more important driving becomes in shooting lower scores and lowering the handicap because higher handicaps have so much variance and deviation in their driving. That's not only from a directional standpoint, but from a distance standpoint. A 20 handicapper may hit one 250 yards on one drive, then 100 yards on the next drive and then 190 on the next. Now...I tend to think that the higher handicaps tend to have a steep attack angle with the driver so shallowing that out is helpful. BUT, the real key is getting them to make more consistent contact so there is not so much direction AND distance variance from tee shot to tee shot. In other words, if I had a situation where a golfer could consistently hit 225 yard drives with a flat attack angle and have much improved directional control....I would take that over the golfer who hits up and occasionally hits drives 245 yards but still struggles with distance and directional consistency. As Moe Norman discussed many times...this game is really about advancing the ball towards the cup. My personal feeling is that if you start hitting more and more upward, you're more likely to lose some clubhead speed. Why? You're more likely to have to get into punch elbow and the clubhead can't quite accelerate and assist in you getting speed. I think what has happened is that the equipment has changed and that has changed what one can possibly do with their swing mechanics. You are more apt to see pitch elbow in the older swings like Hogan than in the modern swings. My reasoning is that with persimmon, it was much riskier to hit up on the ball and much riskier to try and have a big CF release ala Rickie Fowler. With oversized titanium, you can get away with the big CF release. Look at the older swings of the truly great ballstrikers of the past. Almost all of them either CP'd or they CF'd but barely did it and was more 'CF inline' ala Nicklaus. IIRC, Tommy Aaron was a big CF release and I looked at his driving statistics in the early 1980's and they were pretty bad. I think that's a big reason for Hogan using pitch elbow. The equipment back then almost forced it upon you if you wanted to strike it great. And from looking at the metrics going only back to 1980...the Tour was more about how well you drove the ball and hit your longer approaches than it was about putting. Probably because the rough was longer back then and greens weren't nearly as smooth. I couldn't imagine what it was like in the 40's thru the 60's. 3JACK I work with a lot of amateurs and a lot of tour pros and I use trackman everyday. I agree with everything in this post. Also, regarding the old school. Those type of muscleback irons had the cg very high and very heelward. Probably easier to get the ball up into that part of the face with pitch elbow. |
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 1, 2013 18:20:55 GMT -5
I work with a lot of amateurs and a lot of tour pros and I use trackman everyday. I agree with everything in this post. Without exaggeration, at the Open Forum at the PGA Show, Fredrik Tuxen stood up and talked about hitting up on the driver and stated to the effect that he advocates hitting up on the driver for every golfer. And the Trackman people all agreed. Now, I know Sean Foley uses Trackman and tends to favor what the golfer does best when it comes to hitting up or down. Interestingly, I've read Andy Plummer not being a fan of hitting up on the driver either. I guess it depends on if you favor the player's viewpoint or Trackman's viewpoint...but I would say about all of the Trackman guys at the Open Forum felt every player should hit up on the driver. It's why I tend to believe that the driver is really designed for a flat hit. I think we can all agree that where the ball is struck on the face is very important. I think what happens is that we tend to forget how important where the ball is struck with relation to being above or below the 'sweetspot' on the face. Case in point, Tom Wishon's discovery of how the face roll drastically affects the loft at various points of the clubface. Wishon created Graduated Roll Technology to make the face roll as flat as it can possibly be made.  Believe me, GRT and non-GRT is a very real thing. I carry a 10-degree Wishon 919THI driver and have no problems hitting it off the deck. But, I've tried virtually every top model driver from every OEM and I can hit them about dick-high to a grasshopper. Why? The face roll creates a very low loft on the bottom of the face. So if you're hitting above the sweetspot, you're not reaching total efficiency. That's why Wishon believes that there is a false 'hot spot' on the driver. Golfers playing with lofts that are too low and hitting towards the top part of the face where the loft is more in line with the loft they should be using. And the vertical gear effect causes the ball to spin less...thus creating this faux 'hot spot.' So if you start hitting up or down, I believe you run into problems with finding that sweetspot and hitting above or below the sweetspot. And I think if you hit down and above the sweetspot...that's a recipe for disaster. Conversely, hit up and below the sweetspot...another recipe for disaster. We have to remember that this thing with face-roll changing the loft didn't start happening until these oversized titanium drivers came out. So in Hogan's era with persimmon, you probably weren't going to get away with hitting up and catching the driver above the sweetspot...which you can today and hit it quite far. 3JACK |
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 1, 2013 18:24:03 GMT -5
Excellent. What is your experience with or feeling on keeping pinched elbow but varying ball position and spine tilt at address to promote an upward-ish impact? there's various ways to hit up on the ball. i think what you are talking about is a preference of S&T people. There are other ways to use pitch elbow and hit it high as well. Can't go into them here. You can really hit just about any shot you want with pitch elbow and going CP unless you need an absolute sky-rocket that gets up high immediately with a 3-iron. Common misconception is you can't hit it high with CP. Really hogwash. 3JACK |
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Post by kevcarter on Feb 1, 2013 18:59:39 GMT -5
I feel I've learned a ton in this thread. Thank you!
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Rich M
Beat up Radials
Go Bolts!
Posts: 14
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Post by Rich M on Feb 1, 2013 19:09:12 GMT -5
I feel I've learned a ton in this thread. Thank you! x 2 Very informative post and the reason I enjoy this forum. |
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Post by kamandi on Feb 1, 2013 22:21:11 GMT -5
Great posts, playa and Richie!
I like a lot of Kelvin's stuff in the around hawaii site. What he wrote about loading right then arching the upper back in the backswing, the abduction and adduction stuff with the legs, and the right elbow leading stuff has really helped me with my swing.
A lot of junior golfers do that stuff naturally, but for those of us who took up golf late, it's great that he explains what the body is supposed to do. A lot of the stuff he explains, you don't find that info on other sites, so that's pretty cool.
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Post by chicagogolfcoach on Feb 1, 2013 22:59:31 GMT -5
Yes very good thread. I had a Wishon 919thi and it was the most forgiving driver I have ever owned
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Post by playa on Feb 2, 2013 9:58:37 GMT -5
Hey Richie, if you will, on CP and CF, can you provide an exemplary DTL swing of each ( :)not you doing it unless you want to)? I think I know what you (or others talking CP/CF) mean, just want to be sure. If fact, I am more interested in the swing plane than whether the right elbow is pinched or not.
Hey guys, although Kelvin's stuff is exhaustively comprehensive and Jeffy did his part highlighting them whenever he could, often it feels like a thick book that one does not know where to start and how best to individualize it.
Here is something that I feel has a rather universal application and can be a short cut to experience that type of swing, so that more people earlier can experience the aha moment and to build further from there.
Give this a try. But first let me explain and bring you there.
If you carefully study "that" type of swing endorsed by K and J, either from students that they have showcased, or some well known players that "drive and hold" like that, despite everything else, be it swing speed back and forth, address position, backswing swing angle, downswing angle, impact position, etc, etc, etc, there is one thing in common among them all.
In the middle of the downswing, they all look the same at one moment in time. Since I can't draw a figure easily here, I will first to attempt to describe it.
After the transition, in the downswing, when the lead arm falls to parallel to the ground, the 2 lower limbs are in slightly bowed position (squat if you will). The key is that they are BALANCED and SYMMETRICAL, that is, one lower limb is a mirror image of the other, with no weight shift bias to either right or left visibly, like capital letter A, sort of.
This essential position is formed dynamically, not statically, in the real swings of those players. It took doing a lot of moves correctly to get to there naturally, with time and a lot of repetition, careful inspection and self awareness.
So we ask, what if we train people to get into that position STATICALLY first and then proceed to swing from there into the ball and finish the swing, to experience how it FEELS like to start from a correct position and then to turn through the hip and swing as hard as one wants to into the ball? How about we put aside those micro moves and first get this major correct?
One stands in front of a large mirror, with a stick in hands, backswing all the way to the top, slowly come down into the posture described above: parallel lead arm, 2 balanced legs, stay there for a moment or two and let your body absorb that feel, then, swing and finish. Just swing, without any intentional hip bump or slide which has been ingrained in many. For some, may need to swing through slower in order to observe and feel this centered hip rotation, rather than, bump and then turn.
Now, let's backtrack for a moment and ask this question. What do folks who do not employ "that" swing look like in that posture? Typically, when this player's left arm is parallel to the ground, the legs do not look like a letter A. Because of the weight shift or slide or a combo of both already put into motion, visibly there is already a bias toward the left, so a tilted letter A toward the left side. What is the physiological consequence coming up? Among many things, couple stand out. The hip rotation takes on a different nature, from a centered hinge rotation to one that is hinged more on the left leg. Think about throwing a medicine ball or a bucket of water, and try to do it both ways, one with centered hip swing the other left leg hinged. I throw out much further and stronger if I do not weight shift toward the left side early. In fact, I don't even think of going to the left; my upper body complex brings my lower limb into the left.
Second, a left leg hinged hip rotation "finishes" the complete rotation EARLIER while the upper body complex is coming into the hitting zone. This earlier lower body braking (actually physiologically sound and subconscious) sends the message to the wrist to release earlier, challenging the player to control it. So, what comes down to us is to choose one of the two types of dynamic motion: do you favor a hip rotation what is centered or one that is left leg biased.
So, let's say we end up doing 2000 swings exactly as prescribed in front of a mirror, with a stick or even a real club and one day, we make a "mistake" by actually starting the swing not at the parallel but before that by couple inches, thus a fuller swing. I argue that then your body and mind will have enough senses to still coordinate everything and still go through that position correctly (what I will call as // and symmetrical), something one can video and slow mo play back to verify. Then one builds on the progress and push back the starting position further and further until one day one realizes that even with a full swing your body has been conditioned enough to always go through that // and symm position...
Being too verbose, I will rest for now!
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