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Post by cwdlaw223 on May 8, 2012 18:17:11 GMT -5
There's an artilce by him in the latest Golf Digest where he claims everyone already knew the correct ballflight laws. Someone tried to explain them to him and this prick says they already existed and were known. I guarantee that he does NOT understand impact.
Now I know why he can't analyze a swing properly. He has no idea what happens at impact.
NOBODY informed the masses how much attack angle influenced path for good players until Trackman came around. NOBODY informed the masses how important the face angle was for the initial direction of the ball for all players. Not until Trackman did I ever think about path and face and gear effect like I do today.
He doesn't want to learn and thinks he has all of the answers. You don't need to know the ballflight laws to play good golf. But you better know them if you're going to communicate to others what happened at impact on a shot.
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Post by 94monarch on May 8, 2012 20:39:14 GMT -5
agreed...as well I keep hearing Faldo, who has experience on Trackman, talking about hitting the inside or outside of the ball, he said it talking about Tiger on Sunday at Quail...I mean, as they say on NFL Tonight "Cmon Man!"
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Post by cwdlaw223 on May 8, 2012 21:21:27 GMT -5
You would think an announcer would want to learn more to help golfers. You can keep this stuff simple and still help people. Not everyone needs to hit balls on Trackman to get good, but such people often don't know WHY they're good or how they hit a certain shot. I want to know the WHY!
Did you see Pete Aliss' acceptance speech into the Hall of Fame? Pure brilliance. I love hearing him as an announcer. I like Faldo as well (except for the short hand untruths).
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Post by teeace on May 9, 2012 0:40:42 GMT -5
There's an artilce by him in the latest Golf Digest where he claims everyone already knew the correct ballflight laws. Someone tried to explain them to him and this prick says they already existed and were known. I guarantee that he does NOT understand impact. Now I know why he can't analyze a swing properly. He has no idea what happens at impact. NOBODY informed the masses how much attack angle influenced path for good players until Trackman came around. NOBODY informed the masses how important the face angle was for the initial direction of the ball for all players. Not until Trackman did I ever think about path and face and gear effect like I do today. He doesn't want to learn and thinks he has all of the answers. You don't need to know the ballflight laws to play good golf. But you better know them if you're going to communicate to others what happened at impact on a shot. CWD you are totally wrong with this. If you didn't know or if it was not so public talk, it really doesn't mean that nobody knew about that. It was well known much before no one even heard about trackman. And by the way, ball flight laws (those 5) has never changed and will never change. Conclusions about their combinations can change and understanding the ball flight geometry can be developed, but they always will be based on those 5 laws
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Post by cwdlaw223 on May 9, 2012 6:26:39 GMT -5
Where's your evidence Tapio? We've been down this path before on this site about the lack of instruction about attack angle and face. You aren't from this country and I fail to see how you could possibly know golf instruction prior to Trackman. Some people guessed correctly about AoA and face angle dominance. Most never said a word because we did NOT know the correct ballflight laws. In fact, the PGA Manual's ballflight laws made no mention of attack angle on path. You will not find publications in this country prior to Trackman discussing AoA and it's influence on path. It does not exist. Furthermore, most PGA instructors believed path was more important than face. My post above is correct which is why the whole D plane issue took off around the time Trackman was introduced. Some guessed correctly about ballflight, most didn't.
BTW - Nobody told the masses doesn't mean nobody knew. You need to re-read my post and reconsider your post! My post recognizes the fact that some knew, but most didn't. Chamblee (and you) are living in a fantasyland if you believe that most knew the correct ballflight laws and the issue of AoA and face angle dominance.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on May 9, 2012 6:38:23 GMT -5
Theodore Jurgenson coined the term "D plane" in 1999. So how exactly did people communicate effectively about ballflight and impact prior to the coining of the term D Plane? They didn't. In fact, it took several years afterward for people to digest this concept so they could communicate effectively to the masses.
Was math created or discovered? Think about that question in light of the claims that the laws always existed. The law needed detail about AoA and face angle dominance for everything to fit.
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Post by Richie3Jack on May 9, 2012 7:22:47 GMT -5
To their credit, I think Plummer and Bennett tried to notify the masses about D-Plane before Trackman came out. Or close to it. I'm pretty sure that TM came out in 2007, so it was right around that time that P&B were trying to inform people of D-Plane. And I highly doubt they knew a thing about TM at that time either.
From all of my experience and reading, you would get most instructors saying that the ball initially goes on the path. Some would then use contradictory advice. Others would say it starts on the face, but would also give contradictory advice.
It doesn't really matter to me what Brandel or McLean claim they knew. When I do my D-Plane certification, I make sure that the instructor not only knows D-Plane, but how to logically apply it. Brandel’s on-course lesson with Aaron Rodgers showed me that he doesn’t understand how to logically apply that. To me, that’s what really matters.
3JACK
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Post by iacas on May 9, 2012 7:39:32 GMT -5
In fact, the PGA Manual's ballflight laws made no mention of attack angle on path. Just saying, but "path" is the result, so who cares if you mention AoA? Virtually nobody who said "path" was referring to HSP or Swing Direction. They were talking about the instantaneous path of the club at impact. SD/HSP + AoA + VSP = "PATH" (I'm not literally saying add them, I'm saying they're all factors that RESULT in a true 3D "path"). And again, it's basic geometry, so I think plenty of people who grasped the right ball flight laws understood that hitting more down meant hitting more out with the same HSP (I like typing HSP more than "Swing Direction" or "SD").
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Post by cwdlaw223 on May 9, 2012 8:32:22 GMT -5
Iacas -
If it's so basic how come everyone was so confused? The norm was error in the past. Seems like a lot of new memory about the past. AoA plays a huge role in path. That's why it's so important. I'm sure when you think about path now you also think about AoA. That wasn't widely known. If it was, where's the evidence? Nothing in writing about this prior to 1998! No real structure to communicating the D plane to the masses until 2007.
How old are you? I'm 40 and played since 1984. This stuff is "new" to the masses and most still aren't aware.
What you think in basic now was complicated in the past.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on May 9, 2012 9:00:27 GMT -5
Nobody talked in VSP HSP AoA as path until Trackman. Path was just direction with the 3D element of AoA. I don't deny that some knew, but they didn't share with the masses.
People thought for thousands of years the sun revolved around the earth (some still do (geocentrists)), now we believe the earth revolves around the sun. History is often forgotten.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on May 9, 2012 9:03:54 GMT -5
I think 2007 is when this stuff became WIDELY available. I give credit to Mac, Plummer and Bennett. Not trying to take credit away from anyone. But for those of us who grew up during the 80s and 90s this stuff wasn't widely known. I'm grateful to all who helped and researched this issue. I won't die wondering about my golf swing and why I had debilitating hooks for years (long gone).
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Post by teeace on May 9, 2012 9:38:40 GMT -5
Where's your evidence Tapio? We've been down this path before on this site about the lack of instruction about attack angle and face. You aren't from this country and I fail to see how you could possibly know golf instruction prior to Trackman. BTW - Nobody told the masses doesn't mean nobody knew. . First of all cwd I know that big part of instruction around the world is bad and I feel sorry about that. Second thing is that I have to correct you about ball flight laws. There is five of them and they exist like they are told in PGA Teaching Manual and in all other books I've seen: 1. Path 2. Speed 3. AoA4. Centrenes of impact 5. Face direction Ball flight laws doesn't tell about shot and impact geometry, they are just a list about things that got effect to the ball flight. The ball flight geometry has been most of the time demonstrated wrong way and I hate to see those images that give totally wrong idea of the ball flight relative to the impact geometry. But the other thing is also do we need to explain D-plane to our students because they get just confused by too much information. I always work by the ball flight and without any D-plane theory can tell people to what direction they should change their movements. I have always understood that the ball starts more to the direction of the face than to the path and also understood that compression is one thing that changes that relation. For me the D-plane or FS/TM hasn't been a big thing even I studied it years ago and understand it quite well. Not big thing because even before that I always started with AoA without any measurements and then when to path and face direction. And I think lot of great teachers did the same years before D-plane game so hot case and the simple way was just add some element or take something off to get the ball flight they wanted. Nice things to talk, but real life teaching can be totally something else than filling students head with information.
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Post by iacas on May 9, 2012 9:40:00 GMT -5
If it's so basic how come everyone was so confused? What is "it"? And not "everyone" was so confused. I'm simply saying that "path was path." It factored in AoA. Virtually nobody who said "path" before Trackman but had the BFL correct meant HSP/SD. They meant "path." AoA plays a huge role in path. You continually over-state the importance of AoA in path. It's incredibly rare that you fix someone's path by changing their AoA. I'm sure when you think about path now you also think about AoA. No, not really. If someone's taking a good divot we fix their path. If someone's not taking a good divot path is often not their biggest concern - it's striking the ball cleanly. What you think in basic now was complicated in the past. No, it's just as simple as it is now. The club swings on an arc through the impact interval. The geometry of a circle (or an arc) is as simple now as it was in the days of the ancient Greeks. Nobody talked in VSP HSP AoA as path until Trackman. And it's over-discussed these days. People are pretty consistent with their AoA. Do you know how often we give AoA lessons specifically in terms of changing the path? Almost never. Gave one on Thursday, in fact, but typically these lessons are about 2% of the lessons we give. Your "debilitating hooks" were probably not solved by hitting less down on the golf ball. They were solved by understanding the "path" and face relationship.
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Post by iacas on May 9, 2012 9:41:01 GMT -5
Tapio, those aren't the things people are talking about when they say "ball flight laws" and you know it.
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Post by teeace on May 9, 2012 10:04:49 GMT -5
Tapio, those aren't the things people are talking about when they say "ball flight laws" and you know it. Yep, or actually I learned that in US forums and was confused first because those are the official ones and I couldn't really understand what people said when they said that ball flight laws has changed. In our education here those have been always the ball flight laws and we have been using shot geometry when talking about those relations. But I totally agree with you about that path and face relation thing and I think they are those what we work in 97% of cases when people first get decent AoA. And also we have to remember that path has it's effect to AoA every time. So chicken or egg?
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