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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 20, 2010 16:54:01 GMT -5
Its internet advice, there is an implied buyer beware....I just appreciate the help!
I have the book, its good. I don't agree with all of it but it has some solid stuff on ball flight laws and the faults and fixes.
When I practice tomorrow night this is the agenda (I usaully practice for about 2 hours a session).
1. Keep working on the rightwards leaning spine, then transfer weight to left hip using the Hogan elastic band image.
2. Keep rotating through the shot with more emphasis.
3. hip slant/shoulder rotation
Thats probably more than enough for tomorrows session. I am not playing this weekend so probably more work then.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 21, 2010 1:05:52 GMT -5
VJ You wrote-: "I am not an expert on anatomy and I know I don't understand it nearly as well as Jeff, but I will have to disagree on one point that I see over and over again and it is that the golf swing is "natural". I apologize for coming across as rude, but NO! Not many things in the golf swing are natural, or come naturally to everyone. If this were the case the average handicap would be MUCH lower." I think that you are miscontruing my use of the term "natural". I don't think that the golf swing is "natural". If it was, it would be easy to learn. I think that the golf swing is enormously complex. However, I think that biomechanical movements can be " natural" and easy to perform because they are intrinsic to human anatomy and physiology. My biggest gripe about golf instructional advice (whether it is offered by famous golf instructors like Haney or McLean or infamous internet-based golf instructors) is that the golf instructional advice doesn't take into account natural human biomechanics. For example, imagine if I sat you in a kitchen chair with the back of your chair against an open kitchen cabinet containing a container of sugar. Imagine that I asked you to pass me the sugar. You would immediately rotate your torso clockwise so that you could reach the sugar container with your right hand. You would not need to think of how to rotate your torso - you would perform the necessary biomechanical actions naturally. The same natural biomechanical movements should underlie a golf swing. Look again at this video of Ben Hogan swinging a golf club. www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmPuzgBXEMHis torso motion is naturally rotational - because he is simply swinging an object in a circular arc from the right side of his body across the front of his body to the left side of the body, while generating a consistent low point location. Why on earth should a golfer need to perform a body motion (that is based on biomechanically unnatural movements) like this S&T golfer to accomplish that goal? Jeff.
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Post by vjsinger on Jan 21, 2010 1:19:22 GMT -5
Jeff,
What are you talking about when you say a right leaning spine? If you could give me some examples of TOUR players maybe that will help me understand a little better. I'm guessing you consider Hogan to have the most "natural" pivot...is this correct?
VJ
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 21, 2010 1:43:42 GMT -5
VJ - I definitely think that Hogan has a superb pivot action. However, many professional golfers have a superb backswing pivot action (around a rightwards tilted spine). Here are two golfers who pivot beautifully around a rightwards tilted spine in the backswing. 1) Mike Finney. homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/mikestlocdriver05front.movThis is an Apple Quicktime movie. Note that he has a small degree of rightwards spinal tilt at address (green dotted line). Note that he simply rotates his upper torso around his spine in the backswing - while maintaining the same degree of rightwards spinal tilt. 2) Stuart Appleby. www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jqJ9R2LypYImage 1 shows his rightwards spinal tilt at address (yellow line). Image 2 shows that he has basically the same degree of rightwards spinal tilt at the end-backswing - because he simply rotated his upper torso around his rightwards tilted spine during the backswing. Jeff.
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 21, 2010 6:33:34 GMT -5
Jeff,
Would you say Applebee's swing is one of the most efficient on tour? How about Stricker, what do you think of his swing?
I really like the "looks" of both swings, they seem very simple and easy to repeat.
Kevin
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 21, 2010 11:06:15 GMT -5
Jeff, Would you say Applebee's swing is one of the most efficient on tour? How about Stricker, what do you think of his swing? I really like the "looks" of both swings, they seem very simple and easy to repeat. Kevin Stuart's is my standard, just looks very efficient yet has a little more power elements than Stricker. I also love his backswing motion....I have no clue if his teacher is an AI but he sure gets on plane using the right forearm takeaway.
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 21, 2010 11:25:03 GMT -5
I agree Greg, I think it's an AWESOME model! It looks very simple, but very powerful at the same time. You KNOW I love the Magic of the Right Forearm!
Kevin
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 21, 2010 11:29:18 GMT -5
Kevin
I do think that Stuart Appleby has a very efficient swing.
I would say the same thing for Steve Stricker. I love his swing!
Jeff.
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 21, 2010 11:37:21 GMT -5
Kevin I do think that Stuart Appleby has a very efficient swing. I would say the same thing for Steve Stricker. I love his swing! Jeff. You've always had great taste... Thanks Jeff! Kevin
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 21, 2010 11:50:31 GMT -5
Greg Here is swing suggestion idea that you can experiment with if you are interested. Consider this photo-diagram from the S&T book. Photos A and B are golfers with a rightwards-tilted spine and photos C and D are golfers with a leftwards-titled spine. Bennett/Plummer recommend photo C for their S&T swing and regard photo D as having too much leftwards tilt. I prefer a rightwards-centralised backswing action swing pattern - photo B - as exemplified by Stuart Appleby and Sean O Hair and Mike Finney. You have more rightwards tilt - like photo A. If you want to mimic photo B, try and place your ball much more forward - just behind low point. It may induce you to have less rightwards-tilt in your backswing and you will be less inclined to have a "hanging-back" problem in the downswing. See if that improves the solidity of your ball contact. If not, you can always go back to your habitual pattern. Jeff.
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 21, 2010 12:11:52 GMT -5
Jeff,
Good point. I am finding as an added benefit, moving the ball forward assists in clearing the hips and getting the club back up the plane after impact...
Kevin
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 21, 2010 13:22:01 GMT -5
Jeff,
Its likely because I am going the extra mile to make sure I get the weight off the front foot to be more of a 60-40 distribution. I agree B is the model I would prefer. You can see a reach extension on the backswing in my video thats not totally natural and forced a little but, its just moving towards the goal of this pivot motion. Ideally when I get closer to the model I can work more on a better RFT with less reach and head movement.
One thing I have learned through all my experimenting is that my swing works better when its pivot initiated/activated. I have tried both ways extensively.
Jeff, question for you, do you think ball position, in this case forward as you recommend, is going to promote more rotation through the shot. Do people who have it farther back tend to dump the accumulators sooner and then stall out? I don't know just asking the question.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 22, 2010 10:34:54 GMT -5
Greg, I don't think that having the ball further back promotes an earlier release of the power accumulators. I think that it predisposes to incomplete release of the power accumulators and a tendency to have an incomplete club release (which can predispose to push-sliced shots). Consider Ben Hogan's ball placement. He placed the ball just behind low point for all shots, and simply varied his stance width by moving the right foot. I think that a forward ball position promotes an assertive pivot action where one assertively transfers weight onto a straight left leg in the downswing, while placing the ball further back promotes a sluggish pivot action and possibly pivot stalling. Jeff.
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 22, 2010 10:46:12 GMT -5
... I think that a forward ball position promotes an assertive pivot action where one assertively transfers weight onto a straight left leg in the downswing, while placing the ball further back promotes a sluggish pivot action and possibly pivot stalling. Jeff. Preach on Brother, AMEN! Kevin
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Post by vjsinger on Jan 22, 2010 21:23:04 GMT -5
Greg, I don't think that having the ball further back promotes an earlier release of the power accumulators. I think that it predisposes to incomplete release of the power accumulators and a tendency to have an incomplete club release (which can predispose to push-sliced shots). Consider Ben Hogan's ball placement. He placed the ball just behind low point for all shots, and simply varied his stance width by moving the right foot. I think that a forward ball position promotes an assertive pivot action where one assertively transfers weight onto a straight left leg in the downswing, while placing the ball further back promotes a sluggish pivot action and possibly pivot stalling. Jeff. Do you think a straight left leg speeds up rotation of the upper torso in the through swing? I'm curious about your thoughts on why this may be an advantage or disadvantage?
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