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Post by cwdlaw223 on Sept 17, 2010 18:29:57 GMT -5
How is club path and HSP by Trackman similar and yet different? I don't get it.
I know that club path is the path through the impact interval, however, how is that not part of the HSP?
I suspect my concept of what these terms should mean is incorrect. Most people think of "plane" as the shaft plane and I know that Trackman is concerned about the sweetspot traveling on an inclined plane through impact. (Maybe I even have that wrong???).
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 17, 2010 20:06:04 GMT -5
The club path refers to the clubhead path at impact.
The HSP is merely a tangent to low point - and it is a conceptual idea based on the "belief" that the overall clubhead path arc is circular and that it is is symmetrical to the HSP.
Jeff.
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Post by mikestloc on Sept 17, 2010 23:08:12 GMT -5
How is club path and HSP by Trackman similar and yet different? I don't get it. I know that club path is the path through the impact interval, however, how is that not part of the HSP? I suspect my concept of what these terms should mean is incorrect. Most people think of "plane" as the shaft plane and I know that Trackman is concerned about the sweetspot traveling on an inclined plane through impact. (Maybe I even have that wrong???). Cdlaw Hsp and club path are the same for completely level strikes.....any downward strike skews the path to the right and any upward strike skews the path left.....look up brian's essential d plane movie on YouTube....the part where he places the stick on the three different arrows is all you need to see
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 18, 2010 0:14:23 GMT -5
Mike wrote-: "Hsp and club path are the same for completely level strikes.....any downward strike skews the path to the right and any upward strike skews the path left." It is interesting that Mike believes that a downward strike "skews" the path. That term "skew" seems to imply that the downwards strike has moved the clubhead path rightwards, when another observer would simply say that the ball is more up-plane and is being hit as the clubhead descends to low point. From The Trackman website. Note that the HSP line is a line that is drawn as a tangent to the clubhead arc at low point (mark I). Here is another photo-diagram from my review paper on ball flight laws. Jeff.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Sept 18, 2010 21:07:16 GMT -5
I agree that the term 'horizontal swing plane' is a bit confusing. It should be called something like 'low point direction' or something along those terms. That would probably help people understand the low point better and its influence on the golf swing.
3JACK
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Post by Richie3Jack on Sept 18, 2010 21:52:17 GMT -5
Mike,
Stuff like that isn't allowed here. If you have an issue with Jeff's post, refute the actual post instead of making attacks on his character and/or personality.
Thanks.
3JACK
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Post by mikestloc on Sept 18, 2010 22:38:46 GMT -5
Mike, Stuff like that isn't allowed here. If you have an issue with Jeff's post, refute the actual post instead of making attacks on his character and/or personality. Thanks. 3JACK give me a break...brian re-introduced the d-plane to golf - dr. jorgenson did the hard work, trackman measured it, and brian explained it....i'm sorry the word "skew" didn't meet the high standards of jeff mann...
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Post by Richie3Jack on Sept 18, 2010 23:36:24 GMT -5
Mike, Stuff like that isn't allowed here. If you have an issue with Jeff's post, refute the actual post instead of making attacks on his character and/or personality. Thanks. 3JACK give me a break...brian re-introduced the d-plane to golf - dr. jorgenson did the hard work, trackman measured it, and brian explained it....i'm sorry the word "skew" didn't meet the high standards of jeff mann... Doesn't have anything to do with 'meeting high standards', Mike. The term 'skew' is a bit confusing when defining what happens here. The term skew can be defined as 'to distort' or 'to depict unfairly' as noted in this link dictionary.reference.com/browse/skewSo when you say that a downward strike 'skews the path', I don't think that's accurate. I get what you're saying, I just think the term skew (or to distort) isn't accurate. But somebody else who is reading this thread who doesn't understand the relationship of AoA, HSP and Path may get confused by saying that a 'downward strike will skew the path.' 3JACK
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Post by Richie3Jack on Sept 19, 2010 0:01:17 GMT -5
Getting back to cwdlaw223's question.
HSP = direction of the low point. Since it is a direction either left, right or directly at the target...that's why it's termed *Horizontal* swing plane.
Path = the direction the clubhead is going (aka inside-to-out, outside-to-in, etc.).
Attack Angle = the angle the clubhead comes into impact, measured from the FACE ON vantage point.
We have 3 basic types of attack angles.
1. Downward attack angle (negative number) 2. Upward Attack angle (positive number) 3. A 'flat' attack angle (0.0*)
And then there are varying degrees of downward and upward attack angles.
The attack angles correlate with where the low point is.
A downward attack angle = low point is forward of the ball.
The more downward the attack angle, the further the distance between the ball and the low point.
So for example, let's say you have an attack angle with a 7-iron of -5*. So let's say that the distance between the ball and the low point is 5 inches. Now let's say you hit that 7-iron and this time you have a -1* attack angle (much more shallow, but still downward). The low point is still in front of the ball, but now it's closer to the ball, we'll say this time it's 2 inches away.
With an upward attack angle, we've already reached the low point and now the clubhead is working upward. The low point is behind the ball. And the more upward the attack angle, the greater the distance between the low point and ball.
We also have to keep in mind that we are swinging on an inclined plane.
So when we have a downward attack angle, the clubhead hits the ball....then the clubhead continues to travel downward after impact to reach the low point. Because it still has to reach the low point and because we swing on an inclined plane, the clubhead will also go out to the right (for righties).
If you're hitting upward, that means you've already passed the low point and the clubhead now goes up and leftward
3JACK
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Post by nothere on Sept 19, 2010 0:18:50 GMT -5
Richie, the clubhead goes out to the right for righties, is that out to the right of the base line/target line or what? also if you have a flat angle of attack does it just go less out to the right?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Sept 19, 2010 10:18:00 GMT -5
If you hit down, it will go out to the right of the target line, unless you direct your swing so the HSP is going left of the target.
A flat hit (0.0* attack angle) means that you're hitting the ball right at the low point. So the HSP (direction of the low point) will be same as the path.
3JACK
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Post by mikestloc on Sept 19, 2010 12:39:04 GMT -5
So the HSP (direction of the low point) will be same as the path. 3JACK Richie, low "point" doesn't have a direction....if we're going to be precise, let's be precise
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 19, 2010 14:10:30 GMT -5
Mike, I don't understand why you believe that low point doesn't have a direction. Here is an example of low point. The hula hoop represents the clubhead arc. Low point is situated on the ball-target line (edge of table). If the ball is placed at low point, then the clubhead attack angle will be zero, and this represents a level strike. The clubhead path at low point will therefore be straight down the ball-target line (and be exactly equivalent to the HSP = Ball-target line). Jeff.
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Post by nothere on Sept 19, 2010 14:25:36 GMT -5
Because it's the end , a point , a spot to go to, in of itself no direction, nada, the lowest point on the clubheads travel can't go any lower than the low point.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Sept 19, 2010 14:36:40 GMT -5
The clubhead is never directed towards an endpoint called "low point" in a full golf swing. The club is swung through low point to a full finish. Low point is merely the nadir of the clubhead arc. As it reaches the nadir of its clubhead arc, the clubhead is moving level and its path must have a direction - which is at a tangent to the clubhead arc at low point.
Jeff.
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