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Post by gmbtempe on Nov 1, 2010 1:04:15 GMT -5
I thought I had read someplace that placing the ball like Hogan or Nicklaus, which was a constant ball position for all clubs other than a driver was a mistake. That the clubs have been designed with hook face to account for a ball that moves in general farther up front for long irons, middle for medium and back for short.
Is this accurate at all. I try to play it roughly the same like Nicklaus but is this a mistake?
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Post by pavaveda on Nov 1, 2010 9:13:45 GMT -5
Greg, I don't know the answer, but your question did remind me of something I read recently on Dave Tutleman's site and how he basically figured the following: Consistent Ball Position = MOI Matched clubs Moving Ball Position = Swingweight Matched clubs www.tutelman.com/golf/design/swingwt1.php?ref=#releaseand www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/MOImatchRecent.php?ref=After reading these, I built a DIY Swing Weight scale out of a kitchen scale, orange juice box, and CD and attempted to MOI match my set so I could use a consistent ball position. So, far, I really like it as a consistent ball position simplifies set up, IMO. And it's almost weird how all my clubs "feel" the same.
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Post by gmbtempe on Nov 1, 2010 10:04:03 GMT -5
Thanks, will read those today....
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Post by Richie3Jack on Nov 1, 2010 11:52:26 GMT -5
I think it's a mistake if you want to optimize your shots to keep the ball position the same for each club.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Nov 1, 2010 14:46:03 GMT -5
I think it's a mistake if you want to optimize your shots to keep the ball position the same for each club. 3JACK care to elaborate a little more. I think one of the things that is affecting my consistency has to do with sloppy setup and maybe not understanding some of those fundamentals.
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walker
Beat up Radials
Posts: 37
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Post by walker on Nov 1, 2010 15:32:46 GMT -5
Ball position is hugely important. I once got to see an Iron Byron hit golf balls. It was incredible how consistently the ball would fly even off a driver.
The engineer then asked us if we wanted to see something that would make us quit golf. He started moving the ball position around in 1/4 inch increments, and the shot dispersion was all over the map.
I don't know if one position or multi-positions would work better, but this demonstration taught me that you at least have to pick a strategy and be very precise about it.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Nov 1, 2010 17:31:49 GMT -5
care to elaborate a little more. I think one of the things that is affecting my consistency has to do with sloppy setup and maybe not understanding some of those fundamentals. I think for starters with the driver you really don't want too steep of an AoA with today's modern drivers. I'm not saying you have to be +5*, but certainly not as steep as say Tiger was (-3*). I think that's a big reason why many golfers that I grew up watching or even played with, that hit the ball extremely well when it was persimmon and metal just never really got it to translate in the titanium age. Back in the days of persimmon and metal the sky ball was a big factor. Plus, it's harder to make precise contact consistently when hitting up with the driver. So somebody could be a really good ballstriker and hit down on the ball. And they wouldn't have players bombing it by them because typically the really good players wouldn't hit up on the driver back then or if they did, it was probably around +1 to +2*. Now anybody can hit up on the driver with little fear or mis-hitting the ball or sky balling it. And these players gain an incredible advantage over somebody hitting down on it. So, if you want to keep the ball position the same, you're not going to hit up on the ball with the driver. You really need to control the low point and if you, one way or another, understand where the low point is, you can hit optimal shots with that. But if you place the ball in one position, then you're forcing yourself to move the low point around. I'd rather keep the low point the same for the most part, and move the ball around depending on what I'm trying to do. 3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Nov 1, 2010 17:46:29 GMT -5
Well I know the driver has to be more forward than has been taught in books, but what about a picture like this, which is more what I am talking about with regard to the ball moving around?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Nov 1, 2010 18:07:48 GMT -5
Yes, because I think the same principle applies. i don't know of a PGA Tour player who likes hitting wedges super high and long irons very low. It's the opposite. And you can't hit bullets with short irons and parachute long irons from the same ball position.
3JACK
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Nov 1, 2010 18:17:18 GMT -5
If one hits up on the driver isn't the clubhead itself starting to go back and to the left (back up the swin plane) past the low point (I understand that the clubpath as defined by Trackman does left past the low point)?
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Post by pavaveda on Nov 1, 2010 18:53:20 GMT -5
If one hits up on the driver isn't the clubhead itself starting to go back and to the left (back up the swin plane) past the low point (I understand that the clubpath as defined by Trackman does left past the low point)? Yes, this is why you have to get your path going to the right. Rich, Greg, I thought static ball position meant a set up like what is shown in 5 Fundamentals, and a moving ball position is more like the picture that Greg posted. No? If you use the 5 Fundamentals approach, the low point would be moving, but you could keep a constant reference point that makes it easier to set up. No? And I think the Driver might be an exception to the rule since it's the only club you want to hit up on. Therefore, it would be played a bit further up in your stance than is shown in 5 Fundamentals, and your right foot might be even further back from the ball-target line to help get the path to the right. No? For the rest of the clubs, it seems that you could use inside the left heel as a the spot, while moving your right foot around a la 5 Fundamentals. That's pretty interesting about the PingMan. Scary too.
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Post by gmbtempe on Nov 1, 2010 20:45:31 GMT -5
Thats my take pavaveda, that the picture I posted would be closer to the model if you want to move the ball around.
But my question on the thread is if I understand how clubs are designed that they screw around with the hook face of the club to account for a strike that is going to occur at different points of the swing arc. For a short iron with a middle ball position you would need more hook face than a long iron with a forward ball position.
I think Homer Kelly was onto this because he talked about adjusting the face at address for different irons, he also had different recommendations on this with how one powered the club.
The reason I care is if I want to fix something I think is broken, which is sloppy setup procedures then I want to find out what is right based on the equipment I am using. I would rather adjust my setup than adjust my swing.
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Post by pavaveda on Nov 1, 2010 21:19:32 GMT -5
Does it just depend on your set? More specifically, does it depend upon whether you have a set with progressive offset, or a set without offset or the same offset throughout?
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Post by gmbtempe on Nov 1, 2010 21:25:25 GMT -5
Does it just depend on your set? More specifically, does it depend upon whether you have a set with progressive offset, or a set without offset or the same offset throughout? definitely, also I would imagine that it depends on your lie angles.
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Post by jonnygrouville on Nov 1, 2010 23:10:44 GMT -5
Before talking about equipment, isn’t it all relative?
Setting up for a wedge with the ball position a clubhead width inside the stance that is only two clubhead widths wide and it will be in the middle. A clubhead width inside with a wider stance for a long iron is constant relative to the left foot, but your body is clearly in a very different position relative to the ball and the ball position is definitely not in the middle.
The picture above with the moving ball position would look a narrow stance for a long iron or driver.
Doesn’t your stance also change the effective ball position, opening moving it back, closing moving it forward?
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