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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 18, 2010 11:11:59 GMT -5
Do you think Hogan had a 'secret' and if so, what do you think it was? Has it been discovered?
My thinking is that at one time Hogan did have a secret and that was the cupping of the left wrist at the top of the swing. I think back then that was unheard of and since the camera was limited and Hogan's swing was so fast, people couldn't see it and couldn't figure it out. I also don't think he wanted to tell anybody because he didn't want his competition to take the secret and get better with it.
I think where people get confused (myself included) is when he stated that he had another secret and for a certain fee he would tell it to the right tour pro.
Of course, nobody ever took him up on the offer. Which sort of makes me think he stated that in gest.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 18, 2010 11:36:32 GMT -5
I don't know about this secret thing but the man sure has created a legacy about it just by mentioning secret without making a definitive statement.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 18, 2010 13:16:07 GMT -5
Very true. I just don't think there's a 'secret' to the golf swing. If you ever hear hackers talk about a 'new golf tip' they just got you pretty much just roll your eyes. I feel much in the same way about a swing 'secret' and even Hogan's 'secret.' One thing I really like about TGM is that it looks at certain parts of the body and the swing from a different perspective. I guess you could call that a secret, but I think it's more or less things that most popular golf instruction articles never even thought of
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 18, 2010 13:58:50 GMT -5
I agree about there is no secret in golf, there may very well have been a secret for Hogan but not for golf. I say that because there is no one size swing for all, everyone has different flexibility and body shapes, different secrets IMO.
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Post by begolfpro on Jan 19, 2010 2:52:48 GMT -5
In my "opinion" I think the secret to golf is the FLAT LEFT WRIST at impact and Hogan's secret was when he "discovered" his neutral grip. Check out page 102 of Hogan's FIVE LESSONS THE MODERN FUNDAMENTALS OF GOLF" For many years when he came out on tour he was a snap hooker of the ball because he played with what Jack Kuykendall calls a death grip. This is where the back of the left hand is almost on the top of the grip.
However, once Hogan changed his grip to where the back of the left hand was matched up to the clubface he bacame an infinitely better player i.e a great player. This allowed him to have that beautiful FLAT LEFT WRIST at impact and allowing him to control the clubface just the way he wanted to. This is what many training aids and instruction nowadays want golfers to achieve.
Examples are the Pure Ball Striker, The Tally, Jack kukendall's Lever Power Golf Trainer and numerous others.
So again in my opinion the FLAT LEFT WRIST at impact with a good neutral grip having the back of the left hand prallel to the clubface is the ""secret of golf.
Remember if you can control the clubface you control your game. Ok guys and girls don't rip me up too badly ;D
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 19, 2010 10:27:21 GMT -5
Simon,
These are the types of posts we are looking for. State your opinion, back it up with facts, logic, and reason. I think that is missing in many message boards, particularly golf message boards.
Welcome aboard.
I think the change in the grip was certainly a major factor in Hogan's improvement. I also believe he got his hands more mid-body at address.
I read a story once that he was practicing and then he hit 3 or 4, good, but pulled shots. He was so scared of losing shots left that he immediately stopped an went into his 'lair' for a few hours and just thought and thought about what he did wrong. He then realized that he had a closed clubface at impact and then went onto hitting the ball like he usually did. If that's true, I think in essence what Hogan did was find ways to not get that clubface closed coming into impact.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 19, 2010 10:52:02 GMT -5
In my "opinion" I think the secret to golf is the FLAT LEFT WRIST at impact and Hogan's secret was when he "discovered" his neutral grip. Check out page 102 of Hogan's FIVE LESSONS THE MODERN FUNDAMENTALS OF GOLF" For many years when he came out on tour he was a snap hooker of the ball because he played with what Jack Kuykendall calls a death grip. This is where the back of the left hand is almost on the top of the grip. However, once Hogan changed his grip to where the back of the left hand was matched up to the clubface he bacame an infinitely better player i.e a great player. This allowed him to have that beautiful FLAT LEFT WRIST at impact and allowing him to control the clubface just the way he wanted to. This is what many training aids and instruction nowadays want golfers to achieve. Examples are the Pure Ball Striker, The Tally, Jack kukendall's Lever Power Golf Trainer and numerous others. So again in my opinion the FLAT LEFT WRIST at impact with a good neutral grip having the back of the left hand prallel to the clubface is the ""secret of golf. Remember if you can control the clubface you control your game. Ok guys and girls don't rip me up too badly ;D Hey Simon, Love your Youtube videos, been very helpful.
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Post by begolfpro on Jan 19, 2010 11:23:13 GMT -5
Hi Rich and gmbtempe, This is what I have been working on the last few years. Getting that left wrist flat at impact! We all suffered and many are still suffering the "flip" at impact However, once we discover this "secret" our game or should I say our ball striking normally improves exponentially. There are other parts of the game that play an important part as well. I see it with many if not all of my new students in that they suffer from the flips. They mistakenly believe that they have to help the ball up in the air. But by getting them to get that left wrist flat at impact brings such a dramatic improvement that the look of excitement and happiness on their faces once they get it for the first time is just priceless. The joys of being a teacher Also using video analysis has shown me that this is the #1 fault that golfers suffer from. This is where I start and work my way from there in improving their swing. That is why I love the guys and girls that have invented these super training aids. It makes my job as a teacher easier and more fun when I can get the student to feel and have feedback as to what they should be striving for in their swing. Well done again Rich for starting the forum. Oh and by the way guys my name is Bradley and not Simon ;D "FEEDBACK IS THE BREAKFAST OF CHAMPIONS"
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lake
Beat up Radials
3Jack Top 50 Instructor
Posts: 6
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Post by lake on Jan 19, 2010 15:31:51 GMT -5
One of my fav views... I slowed it down a bit
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Post by mudball on Jan 21, 2010 19:21:08 GMT -5
One thing I always notice about Ben Hogan's swing which is at odd's with his Five Lessons is his elbows. In his book he talks about them pointing at the hips - but in most pictures - including the clips in Mexico on this forum they seem more pointed out. What do folk think this does to his swing - why does he do it - yet advise (lesser?) golfers to do something different. Is this a 'bad' habit or a deliberate customisation?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 21, 2010 22:09:32 GMT -5
Could be a 'feel isn't real' type of thing.
Hogan also said he just rotated the hips on the downswing, which really wasn't true.
3JACK
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Post by mudball on Jan 22, 2010 11:48:31 GMT -5
Could be a 'feel isn't real' type of thing. Hogan also said he just rotated the hips on the downswing, which really wasn't true. 3JACK Maybe this and the elbows thing I raised is a case of 'feel is not real' but given his dedication and knowledge of the game and his swing I suspect he knew exactly what he did compared to what he said...
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Jan 22, 2010 22:39:30 GMT -5
Here are some views about the hip move and the elbow move.
As I watch those videos, I think the hip move is a feel thing. Clearly we can see them move forward a little before they turn but he might have just considered that a weight shift. Obviously, I don't know what he was thinking.
As far as the elbow, this is what Jim Hardy declares as his secret. The pics in the 5 lessons book about the elbow is what Hardy thinks messed everyone up, including Hogan. This elbow position in the book will almost always open the face more. It keeps the hands very high. This would cause overly active hand action to square the face leading to his hook. As he learned to keep the elbow up and behind, this would close the face so he could just hold on and rotate around. As long as he kept the handle moving and got it through the inner circle before the head, he couldn't hook. This is all second hand but an accurate description of his believe from his mouth to my ears.
Plus, (this is my little secret) I 've heard from many players accounts that he used to hit it a little on the heel. Tada more fade.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 23, 2010 1:15:35 GMT -5
John,
I harbor a different opinion.
I personally think that Jim Hardy was mistaken about Hogan's right elbow action. I think that Hogan was a swinger, and I think that he used a pitch elbow motion and a release swivel action in his downswing. Jim Hardy implied that Hogan used a right forearm rotary movement in the early downswing that caused the clubface to close earlier (relative to the clubhead arc) in the downswing. I have examined many images of Hogan in the mid-downswing, and his left wrist (which is geometrically flat, and not anatomically flat) lies on the surface of the inclined plane - and his clubface is appropriately in-line (parallel) with the back of his geometrically FLW.
If you disagree, I would appreciate it if you could post photos of Hogan's clubface in the mid-downswing that demonstrates that his clubface is square to the clubhead arc.
Thank you for considering my request.
Jeff.
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Jan 23, 2010 10:58:11 GMT -5
John, I harbor a different opinion. I personally think that Jim Hardy was mistaken about Hogan's right elbow action. I think that Hogan was a swinger, and I think that he used a pitch elbow motion and a release swivel action in his downswing. Jim Hardy implied that Hogan used a right forearm rotary movement in the early downswing that caused the clubface to close earlier (relative to the clubhead arc) in the downswing. I have examined many images of Hogan in the mid-downswing, and his left wrist (which is geometrically flat, and not anatomically flat) lies on the surface of the inclined plane - and his clubface is appropriately in-line (parallel) with the back of his geometrically FLW. If you disagree, I would appreciate it if you could post photos of Hogan's clubface in the mid-downswing that demonstrates that his clubface is square to the clubhead arc. Thank you for considering my request. Jeff. Jeff, Yea, sounds great. I have no real desire to breakdown Hogan's swing. Not a topic that has much bearing for me. John
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