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Post by Richie3Jack on May 28, 2011 8:31:11 GMT -5
I don't think restricting the hips is a good idea for the average golfer and I don't think it's that hard to get the average golfer to turn their hips in the backswing. In fact, I think it's harder for them to restrict the hips. There are things one can do to make hip turn in the backswing easier and still promote a good downswing. Trying to restrict the hips reallyy doesn't do that and I also think it will cause the golfer to hit it shorter.
To me, 5 Lessons is flawed and filled with a lot of 'the feel isn't real' teachings as well.
3JACK
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Post by iacas on May 28, 2011 10:19:03 GMT -5
I don't think restricting the hips is a good idea for the average golfer and I don't think it's that hard to get the average golfer to turn their hips in the backswing. In fact, I think it's harder for them to restrict the hips. There are things one can do to make hip turn in the backswing easier and still promote a good downswing. Trying to restrict the hips reallyy doesn't do that and I also think it will cause the golfer to hit it shorter. To me, 5 Lessons is flawed and filled with a lot of 'the feel isn't real' teachings as well. The X Factor has some relevance on the DOWNSWING - where by the hips start to push forward and unwind before the shoulders. Hogan talked a bit about that, but his oval diagram (page 73 or so?) clearly shows the hips turning a good 45 degrees or so. The X Factor on the backswing is silly. On the downswing I think it has some merit. Bubba turns his hips like crazy on the backswing... then creates some torque in transition and throughout the downswing. |
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Post by kamandi on May 28, 2011 10:49:50 GMT -5
@richie, the key term here is "average golfer". The average golfer does not have the flexibility to make a full shoulder turn with too restrictive a hip turn. iacas, Hogan does teach to restrict the hip turn .... sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1132508/3/index.htmSome prominent golfers advocate taking a big turn with the hips. I don't go along with this. If the hips are turned too far around, then you can create no tension in the muscles between the hips and the shoulders. A golfer wants to have this tension; he wants the mid-section of his body to be tightened up, for this tension is the key to the whole downswing. The downswing, you see, is initiated by turning the hips back to the left. When you have this stored-up tension in the muscles between the hips and the shoulders (and in the muscles of the thighs that work with the hips), you have something with which you can begin the downswing. (This tension will, in fact, automatically help to pull you down into the ball.) As the hips turn back to the left, this turning motion increases their tension. IT IS THIS INCREASED TENSION THAT UNWINDS THE UPPER PART OF THE BODY. IT UNWINDS THE SHOULDERS, THE ARMS AND THE HANDS IN THAT ORDER, THE CORRECT ORDER. IT HELPS THE SWING SO MUCH IT MAKES IT ALMOST AUTOMATIC. Your shoulders, arms and hands enter into the swing just when and as they should. They're already loaded with the tension (and power) they've stored up. They're all set to release it. Hogan, who McLean studied, advocates restricting the hip turn. In his book, his method for doing this was through the way he pointed his right foot, the slight right knee bend inward, and the tension in the inner right leg. Hogan did turn his hips in the backswing more than some modern "x-factor" golfers, but the principle is the same. He believed in the importance of the tension/torque created between the shoulders and the hips in the backswing, and further increased in the downswing. Now a lot of teachers will have their opinions on the merit of this idea; Shawn Clement, in a video, stated it was flawed, and that the really important thing was the tension created between the hips and shoulders in the downswing. Clement's style, though, has the butt practically facing the target, so it's obviously a different approach to generating power. Every teacher has their opinion, but has it been proven that the tension created between the hips and shoulders by restricting hip turn in the backswing (relative to the flexibility of a golfer) is a faulty concept? |
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Post by iacas on May 28, 2011 15:18:05 GMT -5
iacas, Hogan does teach to restrict the hip turn .... We may have to agree to disagree on that. Feel isn't real, and I taught a woman today to feel a lot of "tension" on the right side so she'd tilt and extend at the proper rates... and her hips turned more, and her shoulders turned more. The problem with Hogan's information is that it not only contains a lot of "feel ain't real" stuff as Richie pointed out, it contradicts itself a few times within the same texts and across texts. I've not seen much video where Hogan does anything that I would call "restricting the hip turn" (the video that does he seems to be hitting shorter irons). Hogan had one of the largest lateral moves, yet his books talk about "bump, then turn" and in the text you quoted about turning back to the left. Feel isn't real. Plus, as I said, he talks a lot about adding to the tension in the downswing, which is what I said too. He believed in the importance of the tension/torque created between the shoulders and the hips in the backswing, and further increased in the downswing. The problem is, too, how much is "restrict" in Hogan's day? 40 degrees of hip turn? Some of those old guys turned their hips a TON. Hogan wasn't around too long after hickory... P.S. (Edit:) I'm happy to get 30 degrees of hip turn in my own swing. That's plenty. But it's a lot more than 0... so when I say "a lot" I'm not talking about 50 degrees of hip turn or more. |
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Post by kamandi on May 30, 2011 1:56:43 GMT -5
iacas, first of all, no problem with disagreements; just differing points of view, which is cool.  Next, respectfully, the phrase "feel isn't real" is thrown around a lot; I'm thinking it was popularized by TGM, as they focus on feel through proper mechanics. Although I agree that a lot of "feels" aren't real, a lot of "feels" are real. In fact, some of the truest things in a golf swing are properly felt, but not easily seen on video. An example of this is how there are people who swear by what they see on film that Hogan is a swinger, while others are equally sure that he is a hitter. Pull or push? Looking at video, it's not easily apparent what were the real dominating forces in his swing. If I'm not mistaken, part of the research being done by Manzella's team is trying to really isolate what the "real" forces are at different points of the golf swing, for different swings. Now, tension, is a very specific feel; the stretch is something you feel, but not easily evident on video. Still, watch the Hogan shell match on youtube, and in his driver swings, specially from the down the line view, it is very evident that he does restrict his hips, enough to support his writing of the tension in the backswing, and as he says, the tension helps in initiating the downswing. Again, though, video does not show concrete evidence of the tension Hogan may or may not feel in the backswing, so what I see there, you may see otherwise. On the other hand, you can have mechanics that look right, but the feels are what tells you, even before you see the ballflight, that you made a proper swing. Pros before would learn their own swing, feeling it out with their blades, then knowing when they found it. Their understanding of geometrically correct mechanics, biomechanics, and physics were probably wrong, but their shots were right and they became part of golf's history. Now on the tension on the backswing ... there are golf swings that don't use much of this type of tension, very good golf swings indeed. I've mentioned Shawn Clement; if you want to feel what a proper swing feels like for his style, you do his one leg drill and really allow yourself to turn on that one left leg, really making your butt face the target. Excellent swing, but it has nothing to do with the tension Hogan talks about in the backswing. There are some mistakes and exagerations in Hogan's book, like the picture of 2 arms wrapped together. The importance, though, is the focus on the underlying concept; in the example I mentioned, it had to do with the importance of the concept of connectivity. On the backswing and downswing planes he drew, and the resultant path and clubface; sure, the d-plane shows the actual efficient path, face, angle of attack, etc., but his concepts are still solid. Gary Player, himself, said that he sees a lot of modern instruction very similar to what Hogan taught. Thing with golf is, there are fads of teaching that usually go in extreme directions; flat swing better, steep swing better, one plane swing, shift weight right in the backswing, keep weight left in the backswing, tripod address, reverse k, stack and tilt, use primarily your left hand, use your right hand, using feels .............. now, it's "feel isn't real". There has to be a balance. Feel isn't real sometimes, but feel is also real a lot of times. Apologize for the long post, cheers!
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Post by iacas on May 30, 2011 7:28:34 GMT -5
There has to be a balance. Feel isn't real sometimes, but feel is also real a lot of times. Another thing on which we'll have to disagree. Part of that includes the fact that different feelings work for different people. So while a feel may be "real" to one particular person, that feel will not work for someone else - and that's a problem with Hogan's book as well. His feels won't be "real" for others. Here's a still from the first hole of that match. We may simply have different definitions of "restrict." Attachments:
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Post by kamandi on May 30, 2011 8:09:57 GMT -5
On the topic of the picture, like I said, what I see and what you see may be 2 different things. What we both cannot see is the tension from the stretch between the hips and shoulders that Hogan talks about in the backswing. For the swing he describes, the tension is definitely something you must feel, and recognizing that feeling is an important part of the swing.
In the case of an x-factor stretch, it's important to actually feel that stretch. That's probably why for some people who are extremely flexible, they need to do more to restrain their hips, in order to actually build that tension. For people who are less flexible, they'll need to allow their hips to turn more in the backswing. For people who really lack the flexibility, an x-factor stretch in the backswing is not recommended at all .... thus Brian's statement basically saying that an x-factor stretch is a good thing, but it's not for everybody.
In this case, it's a feel that will help you diagnose if you properly executed the x-factor stretch. A very flexible player may, mechanically, look like he's doing an x-factor stretch, but if he doesn't feel it, it really isn't there. Thus, sometimes, feel trumps mechanics; most times, it's the other way around.
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Post by gmbtempe on May 30, 2011 11:10:15 GMT -5
I don't think restricting the hips is a good idea for the average golfer and I don't think it's that hard to get the average golfer to turn their hips in the backswing. In fact, I think it's harder for them to restrict the hips. There are things one can do to make hip turn in the backswing easier and still promote a good downswing. Trying to restrict the hips reallyy doesn't do that and I also think it will cause the golfer to hit it shorter. To me, 5 Lessons is flawed and filled with a lot of 'the feel isn't real' teachings as well. The X Factor has some relevance on the DOWNSWING - where by the hips start to push forward and unwind before the shoulders. Hogan talked a bit about that, but his oval diagram (page 73 or so?) clearly shows the hips turning a good 45 degrees or so. The X Factor on the backswing is silly. On the downswing I think it has some merit. Bubba turns his hips like crazy on the backswing... then creates some torque in transition and throughout the downswing. I agree with this, and its one of the things I thought Johnny Miller got correct and he said he never felt a restriction of his hips on the down swing and that his x factor was created in his transition. Where are Phils' and Bubba's X factor on their backswing? |
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Post by kamandi on May 31, 2011 7:13:44 GMT -5
The X Factor has some relevance on the DOWNSWING - where by the hips start to push forward and unwind before the shoulders. Hogan talked a bit about that, but his oval diagram (page 73 or so?) clearly shows the hips turning a good 45 degrees or so. The X Factor on the backswing is silly. On the downswing I think it has some merit. Bubba turns his hips like crazy on the backswing... then creates some torque in transition and throughout the downswing. I agree with this, and its one of the things I thought Johnny Miller got correct and he said he never felt a restriction of his hips on the down swing and that his x factor was created in his transition. Where are Phils' and Bubba's X factor on their backswing?See, what's happening here is that because you don't find evidence of x-factor on the swings of 2 long hitters, you don't believe it exists, yet several other long hitters have, what they believe themselves, evidence of the effectivity of x-factor in their swings. Like I said in a previous post, there are several good swings that don't focus on the x-factor stretch, but there are several that do. gmbtempe, can you prove that x-factor in the backswing does not help generate power? I'm not talking about the relevance in your swing; I'm talking about several other players, like Sadlowski, Fowler, etc. It's like stack and tilt, and how some people swear by it's effectivity, while others junk it. Can those who junk it prove that it isn't effective? I don't like stack and tilt, but I cannot disprove it's effectivity, just like Johnny Miller can't prove that x-factor on the backswing is useless. Cheers. |
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Post by kevcarter on May 31, 2011 7:45:44 GMT -5
I agree with this, and its one of the things I thought Johnny Miller got correct and he said he never felt a restriction of his hips on the down swing and that his x factor was created in his transition. Where are Phils' and Bubba's X factor on their backswing?See, what's happening here is that because you don't find evidence of x-factor on the swings of 2 long hitters, you don't believe it exists, yet several other long hitters have, what they believe themselves, evidence of the effectivity of x-factor in their swings. Like I said in a previous post, there are several good swings that don't focus on the x-factor stretch, but there are several that do. gmbtempe, can you prove that x-factor in the backswing does not help generate power? I'm not talking about the relevance in your swing; I'm talking about several other players, like Sadlowski, Fowler, etc. It's like stack and tilt, and how some people swear by it's effectivity, while others junk it. Can those who junk it prove that it isn't effective? I don't like stack and tilt, but I cannot disprove it's effectivity, just like Johnny Miller can't prove that x-factor on the backswing is useless. Cheers. Kamandi, I hope you don't mind if I say you and I think a LOT alike. I believe if it works for one person it has validity and is not junk. No right, wrong, or best in this game, lots of options. That is exactly why Mr. McLean is being picked on here right now. For some reason he felt the need to disrespect TGM even though it is popular with many. State your case based upon your strengths, not others perceived weaknesses. The same reason other really good teachers have created so many enemies... Kevin |
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Post by gmbtempe on May 31, 2011 9:40:55 GMT -5
I agree with this, and its one of the things I thought Johnny Miller got correct and he said he never felt a restriction of his hips on the down swing and that his x factor was created in his transition. Where are Phils' and Bubba's X factor on their backswing?See, what's happening here is that because you don't find evidence of x-factor on the swings of 2 long hitters, you don't believe it exists, yet several other long hitters have, what they believe themselves, evidence of the effectivity of x-factor in their swings. Like I said in a previous post, there are several good swings that don't focus on the x-factor stretch, but there are several that do. gmbtempe, can you prove that x-factor in the backswing does not help generate power? I'm not talking about the relevance in your swing; I'm talking about several other players, like Sadlowski, Fowler, etc. It's like stack and tilt, and how some people swear by it's effectivity, while others junk it. Can those who junk it prove that it isn't effective? I don't like stack and tilt, but I cannot disprove it's effectivity, just like Johnny Miller can't prove that x-factor on the backswing is useless. Cheers. You are correct, I won't say its not a viable way to create power. What I believe is for the masses of golfers its a bad thing, I have seen people try to restrict their hips after reading the article only to make a half turn. So if you have the flexibility and coordination then go ahead. I can't prove that a cross handed grip does not work because it can, does not make it very viable in my mind for the masses of golfers. |
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benita
Beat up Radials
Posts: 32
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Post by benita on May 31, 2011 10:59:59 GMT -5
Kamandi & Kevin, Ditto.
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carland
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 152
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Post by carland on May 31, 2011 11:45:28 GMT -5
The X Factor has some relevance on the DOWNSWING - where by the hips start to push forward and unwind before the shoulders . . . The X Factor on the backswing is silly. On the downswing I think it has some merit . . . Bubba turns his hips like crazy on the backswing... then creates some torque in transition and throughout the downswing. Does X Factor of the hips and shoulders in the downswing relate in any way to float loading of the forearms and wrists? Both add torque, but is one related to the other? |
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Post by kamandi on Jun 2, 2011 0:28:41 GMT -5
kevcarter, I agree; I've read a lot of your posts, and I do think we have similar views on golf. People aren't just physically different, but they're wired different, too, that's why one approach will be bollocks to one golfer, and the holy grail to another. I also agree, instructors shouldn't take potshots at each other. Unfortunately, that kind of marketing works, just like it did with Pepsi, LOL!  gmbtempe, I do agree; for the average person, x-factor in the backswing shouldn't even be a factor. I think the most "average build friendly" swing is the one taught by Shawn Clement. You don't need flexibility for this, you get a very sold shoulder turn, you get effortless power, and you can even do it on one leg.
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