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Post by gmbtempe on Jun 27, 2012 12:42:36 GMT -5
My usual miss, well we can almost call it my normal shot pattern is to hit a very slight straight pull. When I am way off its a pull that will hook, it almost never fades.
I have been talking with @trackmanmaestro, who is instructor Joe Mayo who works with Grant Waite.
I asked him about this ball flight with my previous understanding that I would hit an inside out, hooked bad miss.
His response has seriously eroded that line of thinking, he stated
So my question is if that is truly the case then I have likely NEVER been inside out, but outside in. When I hooked it more than likely the face was closed, path outside in. So this means the face was really closed, probably something like 3-4 degrees left, hitting down a some degree, with a face slightly closed to that?
I have done lots of work to get the path more left, has this been a mistake? I always thought I just flipped the face a touch to hit a pull, but as Joe stated that ball could not go straight in that situation.
Can you have a path to the left and get "under the plane"? Whats also likely happening when I hit it straight is I am aimed right of the target and what looks like a straight shot to me is likely just pulled my visual target line.
Why don't I hit more cuts if the path is left? You would think that would creep in every now and then?
Not sure Joe is a member here but I will link this thread.
Signed,
One seriously confused golfer in Az! Greg
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jun 27, 2012 13:18:06 GMT -5
I don't completely agree with Mayo's assertion, only because I could have a square path, face left of the target and hit it off the heel just enough to counter the hook spin created from the path. I remember seeing a golfer on Trackman do the opposite with a straight push.
Of course, I don't think that was Mayo's premise and he was thinking along the lines of 'all things being equal.'
Also, sometimes it's not easy to tell a true straight ball by it's flight. Sometimes a draw looks straight to the human eye, but it's not.
I also think you can have a path that goes left, even though it appears underplane. The camera positioning may be off or you may be aimed left of the target and don't know it. I know Jason Dufner looks a little underplane, but he aims left and hits a cut.
This is where using a Trackman is really helpful. I remember the first time I used Trackman my swing numbers were pretty good, but I realized that I would aim a little left of the target and I just had to orient things a little more to the right.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Jun 27, 2012 13:36:03 GMT -5
Yes I think he meant considering centered contact.
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Post by mchepp on Jun 27, 2012 17:02:31 GMT -5
As a full time member of the dead pull, potentially pull-hook club, please keep us informed of what you learn in this process. I have been working on moving my path to the left and have encountered some of the same trouble you are having.
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Post by optimalflight on Jun 30, 2012 18:54:27 GMT -5
Trackmanmaestro is severely limited in a proper answer in 140 characters or less. As a result, there's an ongoing chatter and debate of people who will try to test him and create agree to disagree situations. It makes for interesting discussion even when both people in the debate are right to a degree.
I think you will get the answers you seek in my newest application going through final stages of beta testing. If you can capture this shot on a launch monitor, it contains tools to help you self-diagnose the problem and formulate a corrective fix. If you don't, you could try to replicate the situation based on what you think is happening via club path and face delivery - and then explore 'what-if' i changed my path (will it make things worse or better). It's truly very exciting stuff because it puts you on a faster track to enjoying a better golf game and give you shot making skills you didn't know you had.
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Post by anthony on Jul 1, 2012 20:53:44 GMT -5
i dont have measurements .. but i would try keeping shoulder more square at impact and swinging more out. head stay at same place relative to impact point. . more square .. is what i feel. granted its xxx open.. also key for me is move the right arms and wrist on plane relative to body.
hate to say this but im a science person.. so golf is so complicated that i have to kill my science self .. just rip ball off the mofo.hahahah ..
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Post by teeace on Jul 1, 2012 22:18:48 GMT -5
i dont have measurements .. but i would try keeping shoulder more square at impact and swinging more out. head stay at same place relative to impact point. . more square .. is what i feel. granted its xxx open.. also key for me is move the right arms and wrist on plane relative to body. hate to say this but im a science person.. so golf is so complicated that i have to kill my science self .. just rip ball off the mofo.hahahah .. Anthony, so many players has been in same situation than you and tried to fix it like that. The solution is just opposite. Swing left with your hands as hard you can and if you hit it left after that, learn to reduce that compensation you have learned to your hands during the years which is closing the face. Soon you will learn how to twist the face open, flatten the shaft at transition and how the club head still goes from in to out even your hands are moving that much left. And no one... no one believes this before they try it and amaze themselves how straight the ball can fly. Final understanding will make the change happen in 2 minutes like in this case on may
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Post by anthony on Jul 2, 2012 2:51:20 GMT -5
ok im more like the black guy now. I was the grey guy .. though i dont twist the club over like the black guy
the numbers are really better as black guy . as in further and more relaxed.
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Post by teeace on Jul 2, 2012 3:11:23 GMT -5
ok im more like the black guy now. I was the grey guy .. though i dont twist the club over like the black guy the numbers are really better as black guy . as in further and more relaxed. Didn't really get what you meant, but the gray version works 100 times better. Of course it's hard to see the depth from 2D image, but that new swing is made with thoughts "as hard left as possible" Great baby fade is the result or straight shot. Little bowing and you get draw. Simple game.
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dhc1
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 178
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Post by dhc1 on Jul 2, 2012 8:23:51 GMT -5
Those pics look like CP vs CF a la John Erikson.
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Post by teeace on Jul 2, 2012 9:30:01 GMT -5
Those pics look like CP vs CF a la John Erikson. For sure, or Bradley Hughes.. or Hogan in cp or any slicefixers student... or many many other great ball strikers, or my students. The point is that that movement is so easy to do if you just first know and understand it. Most common thing I hear is that it can't be that way, because it's against all our instincts. It's so opposite than what we can read from every magazine. I wonder how we gonna make our living if people just get information about that And before someone claims it, I'm not selling anything. I'm too far away from each of you and got nothing to offer.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jul 2, 2012 10:42:15 GMT -5
Most common thing I hear is that it can't be that way, because it's against all our instincts. It's so opposite than what we can read from every magazine. If you look at a lot of the photos and videos of the good ballstrikers from the 70's and earlier, they almost all go CP or very slightly CF. I tend to think that equipment had something to do with it. I think as drivers have gotten longer and lighter, it's made things more difficult to use CP release to hit them. Conversely, I think somebody like Fowler with a pronounced CF move would be dead in the water trying to hit steel shafted persimmon. I actually believe if Fowler had played back in that era, his swing would be completely different and he would adjust to persimmon. That being said, I don't think a lot of CF golfers on Tour would adjust and would probably be good amateurs who struggle with a hook. I do agree with you on the level of difficulty of CP. For me, a lot of it has to do with getting rid of the stuff in my swing that was ingrained for years thru reading magazine and whatnot. I think there is some organic parts to CF, like the amount of arm swing. You look at beginners, regardless of their age, and they tend to use all arms or a lot more arms than body pivot. But, I don't think having the shoulders closed coming into impact is natural. Generally I think people tend to have the shoulders open when they start out playing golf. Where I disagree with Erickson is in the importance of the backswing. He tends to believe that your backswing doesn't really matter and you can just create a CP-style downswing and the backswing will develop on its own and that the backswing is your 'swing DNA.' It's part of that 'you don't hit the ball with your backswing' mantra. Where I differ is that I think that the backswing, downswing, follow thru and finish are all connected to each other. I know many instructors examine the follow thru of a golfer's swing even though the ball is already gone. Why? Because the follow thru can tell us what is going on in the downswing. I feel the same way about the downswing...it can tell us very much about what is going on in the backswing. And if you're backswing mechanics are a certain way, it may prevent a golfer from achieving the downswing and impact positions they desire. 3JACK
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jul 2, 2012 10:46:59 GMT -5
Anyone consistently CP with irons and CF with woods? Might be a perfect marriage.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jul 2, 2012 11:21:48 GMT -5
I've seen guys do something like that. I think that is what Dana Dahlquist preaches. I've seen somebody like Steve Marino CP with the short irons, CF with everything else. I really don't see it as a perfect marriage because I think you can perfectly CP a driver and still have a positive attack angle. I think that it would be difficult to do, but you could more reasonably CP a driver and get the attack angle at 0 to -1. I know I've read some of Andy Plummer's comments on Facebook recently and he seems opposed to hitting up on the driver because of control and consistency issues he's seen with his students as well as some losing clubhead speed. Personally, all hitting up does is potentially give you the optimal amount of distance off the tee. It doesn't promote accuracy or consistency. And even still, optimizing distance off the tee by hitting up would require a properly fitted driver to do so. I think if you can do it well, time after time, that's great. But I think trying to hit up or re-tooling your swing to hit up may be more of a headache than anything and getting the attack angle closer to 0-degrees is probably more ideal...in the sense of distance, accuracy and consistency. The only shot I can't hit doing CP is a sky-rocket 2-iron over trees. So, I don't carry a 2-iron 3JACK
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Post by teeace on Jul 2, 2012 13:01:58 GMT -5
Most common thing I hear is that it can't be that way, because it's against all our instincts. It's so opposite than what we can read from every magazine. I think there is some organic parts to CF, like the amount of arm swing. You look at beginners, regardless of their age, and they tend to use all arms or a lot more arms than body pivot. But, I don't think having the shoulders closed coming into impact is natural. Generally I think people tend to have the shoulders open when they start out playing golf. 3JACK As my experience, and today once more discussed with few new students, it seems very clear that the instinct is telling us to swing to the target with both, hands and club head. Actually the situation Percy Boomer told to be golf bogey #1. And why they wouldn't think like that because its natural and logical.. unfortunately in golf it leads to bad movements. I think it this way: as far as you try to swing your hands toward the target, like Janne did for many years (guy in the picture) why should you rotate or be open at impact. It's a paradox. If you want your hands continue straight, your subconscious mind tells you to stop rotating, because in other case hands can't go straight. So what happens if you want your hands go strongly to the left? You keep on rotation and stop stalling, because now it has came logical. Still it's not natural, but you can find a logic from that. So lets still continue... now at least I meet daily people who are told to close the face by forearm rotation (been there, done that) to get the face square and they have managed to do that some how and play mid 80's by that (been there, done that ) What happens if you tell those people to hit it to the left with their hands and rotate? Terrible pull hooks and in their mind that advice can't be right, so they go back to the old one. Still timing problems, but at least some balls go straight, at least with short and middle irons. But the real advantage is that when you swing left with your hands BY BODY ROTATION!! (not hands pulled left by arms) all that energy of motion goes to the same direction than your body creates it. By that you get higher hand speed and as we have found in our measurements, the hand speed is main factor to club head speed, however you release it. In other words, there is no way to import more forces to that closed system by wrists or forearms. Here is one of my students, 8 hdcp guy who finally yesterday understood how much left he should swing. Huge difference in body orientations. Hips changed from 18 to 33 degrees open and shoulders from 4 to 21 open at impact. And that change happened in one minute after he understood and accepted it. He called me still in the evening and said he never though hitting ball can be that easy. Sorry for long story, but I hope someone can get the idea and find some help via that.
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