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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 18, 2010 13:58:46 GMT -5
I think some pro's and experts may be a little 'shy' promoting their work on this message board, but I thought I would start it off with member John Graham. If John wishes to add more updates to his work, he can either post them in this thread or create a new thread in this folder. People who have questions for John can also post them here or just PM him on the board. John is based out of the Rochester, NY area and I believe he either has Trackman or has it on his way soon. John is also the head coach of the National JUCO Champion Monroe Community College golf team. He has AimPoint and AMF certification as well as attending Manzella's 1st GTE seminar. His private lesson rates are $50 -1/2 hour (adult) and $40 -1/2 hour (junior) and $90 -1 hour (adult) and $75 - 1hour (junior). He also films each lesson using the super slo-mo Casio EX-FH20 camera. Video lessons are an additional $15. He's got numerous junior students in D-1, D-2 and D-3 college programs. As a person who grew up not too far away from the Rochester area, I can certainly attest that John is a much better, effective and quaified teaching professional than the overwhelming majority of teachers in the Northern, Western, Southern and Central parts of the state. Believe me, I went everywhere for lessons when I was growing up in New York. He's also one of the best teachers I've come across in general and back when I was a junior living in the state of NY, I certainly would've driven 2 hours to go get lessons from him. John's Web site can be found at www.johngrahamgolf.com. You can also contact him at John@johngrahamgolf.com or at 585-752-9606. 3JACK
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Jan 18, 2010 23:03:17 GMT -5
Rich,
Thanks for the very kind words. You do a fantastic job and I wish all the best for you.
John
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Jan 19, 2010 23:44:25 GMT -5
If any of you are golf information junkies, I highly encourage you to head over to twitter and follow @richie3jack and myself johngrahamgolf. From there, you will find about a doz or so pros from all over the world talking about the teaching and coaching the golf swing at a very high level. Lots of great information to bring back here and share with the group. John
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 1, 2010 1:01:25 GMT -5
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 1, 2010 10:41:39 GMT -5
John,
I applaud your attempt to explain the D-plane concept using visual imagery.
However, I find your explanations incomplete and confusing.
Problem-issues for me include-:
1) You talk about shining a light from above to see the "blue line" (initial ball flight path). I cannot understand this point. If one changes the clubface angle, isn't it equivalent to tilting the D-plane and then the initial "ball flight path" should still be superimposed on the plane of the D-plane board. Are you implying that the initial "ball flight" path is not on the plane of tilted D-plane board? Is it because there is now a 3-D angle-of-space between the base of the D-plane and the tilted vertical plane (representing the clubface angle) and that the initial ball flight path must be within that 3-D angle-of-space?
2) In part 2, you talk about cutting off the board to accommodate different relationships between clubface loft and path. I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you express it in a different manner?
3) You are vague about to what degree the clubface determines initial ball flight direction - and you state that it is between 60-80%. Can one not be more precise? What factors cause this variation, and how?
4) How does variations in clubhead speed affect initial ball flight direction? What is the physical explanation?
Thanks for making an attempt to explain D-plane theory.
Jeff.
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 1, 2010 12:21:01 GMT -5
John, I applaud your attempt to explain the D-plane concept using visual imagery. However, I find your explanations incomplete and confusing. Problem-issues for me include-: 1) You talk about shining a light from above to see the "blue line" (initial ball flight path). I cannot understand this point. If one changes the clubface angle, isn't it equivalent to tilting the D-plane and then the initial "ball flight path" should still be superimposed on the plane of the D-plane board. Are you implying that the initial "ball flight" path is not on the plane of tilted D-plane board? Is it because there is now a 3-D angle-of-space between the base of the D-plane and the tilted vertical plane (representing the clubface angle) and that the initial ball flight path must be within that 3-D angle-of-space? 2) In part 2, you talk about cutting off the board to accommodate different relationships between clubface loft and path. I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you express it in a different manner? 3) You are vague about to what degree the clubface determines initial ball flight direction - and you state that it is between 60-80%. Can one not be more precise? What factors cause this variation, and how? 4) How does variations in clubhead speed affect initial ball flight direction? What is the physical explanation? Thanks for making an attempt to explain D-plane theory. Jeff. Jeff, Understandable. It was I have a few minutes to kill unscripted attempt to see how it would look but let's look at these fine questions. 1) You can see in the picture, the shadow of a tilted D plane while looking at the ground. The light idea was to show the relationship between the actual face and the start direction projected on the ground. The thin strip of light between the two shadows is the balls initial direction projected on the ground. The edge of the shadow is where the face is pointed. The edge of the cardboard on the ground is the club path. Hope that helps with seeing the relationship between starting direction relative to face and path as seen on the ground. 2) Yea, all i'm saying there is making a triangle where the loft and path are closer together in terms of spread. 3)Like I tried to explain in the video, I think the relationship varies depending on how close the bottom vector is to the top one. That isn't to say that the path has any more influence but when the vectors are close together, it appears that the ball starts closer to the path than when they are spread out. 4)I think speed effects direction, because the ball compresses more and slightly longer. This would push it's actual starting height lower than the clubface vs when there is less friction from the collision. If the initial height relative to actual face is changing due to speed than anytime the plane is tilted the direction becomes slightly changed based on that height difference. Attachments:
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Feb 1, 2010 13:36:34 GMT -5
John,
I may not be mentally grasping your explanations.
Regarding answer 1) - I can see a light streak between two black shadows. If the outer shadow (most rightwards shadow) represents the clubface orientation, then the light streak (representing the ball flight) is to the left of the clubface orientation. That is what I would expect! However, the light streak is to the right of the real "D-plane" board (which is tilted to the right) and I do not expect the ball to be moving to the right (outside) the "true" clubface orientation path. Am I mixing up two different mental concepts?
You also wrote-: "3) Like I tried to explain in the video, I think the relationship varies depending on how close the bottom vector is to the top one. That isn't to say that the path has any more influence but when the vectors are close together, it appears that the ball starts closer to the path than when they are spread out."
Am I correct to state that the initial ball flight path doesn't move closer to the path when the vectors are closer together, but rather that the ball is still influenced by the clubface orientation to the same degree - however, the clubhead path is now closer to the clubface orientation angle, and therefore closer to the initial ball flight angle?
Regarding answer 4) - is it factually true that the ball has moved less far up the clubface by the exact moment of ball-clubface separation if clubhead speed is greater?
Jeff.
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Post by mudball on Feb 1, 2010 16:54:19 GMT -5
Hi John I've posted a question on your site - but basically and in a nutshell... and with KevCarter's question "Are we nuts?" ringing in my ears... I pose this subtle question. I can drive my car real good. I can stop it, start it and turn it anyway I like. I understand how the engine works - I know where petrol comes from and I understand the refinement process. I also know enough about engineering and mathmatics to understand the detail around engine design. My darling wife, Tracey, who is much cleverer than me and teaches the people who will probably run this planet when I am gone - does not know much about the internal combustion engine or how petrol is made. But she can also drive her car pretty well (OK not as well as me - but well enough ;D - please don't show her this post) But she doesn't need to know all those things - she just needs to know how to apply certain skills to drive safely. e.g. ho much to turn the steering wheel. So frankly I don't think we need to know the technical detail and will leave mightier brains than mine - such as Imperfectgolfer to thrash this out. What I want to know is when is it best to hit a fade aiming left with open face versus swinging slightly left with square face etc - I want the practical application... what lies work best for which variation. This is why I think the old ball flight rules are fairly sound and why folk like Nick Faldo will talk in old ball flight laws... we can get the concept, apply it and trust in it. Now if you could demonstrate that... you'd have a best seller.
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 1, 2010 22:02:27 GMT -5
John, I may not be mentally grasping your explanations. Regarding answer 1) - I can see a light streak between two black shadows. If the outer shadow (most rightwards shadow) represents the clubface orientation, then the light streak (representing the ball flight) is to the left of the clubface orientation. That is what I would expect! However, the light streak is to the right of the real "D-plane" board (which is tilted to the right) and I do not expect the ball to be moving to the right (outside) the "true" clubface orientation path. Am I mixing up two different mental concepts? You also wrote-: "3) Like I tried to explain in the video, I think the relationship varies depending on how close the bottom vector is to the top one. That isn't to say that the path has any more influence but when the vectors are close together, it appears that the ball starts closer to the path than when they are spread out." Am I correct to state that the initial ball flight path doesn't move closer to the path when the vectors are closer together, but rather that the ball is still influenced by the clubface orientation to the same degree - however, the clubhead path is now closer to the clubface orientation angle, and therefore closer to the initial ball flight angle? Regarding answer 4) - is it factually true that the ball has moved less far up the clubface by the exact moment of ball-clubface separation if clubhead speed is greater? Jeff. Regarding question 1, I had to take the picture from an angle because my camera won't shoot through cardboard. This picture was just an attempt to help explain what the light shining idea would look like. You wrote-"Am I correct to state that the initial ball flight path doesn't move closer to the path when the vectors are closer together, but rather that the ball is still influenced by the clubface orientation to the same degree - however, the clubhead path is now closer to the clubface orientation angle, and therefore closer to the initial ball flight angle?" This is my belief and theory and have yet to find anyone to poke holes in it. Please try if it suits you. Regarding question 4- The amount of energy lost is directly related to the clubhead speed. If you prefer I paste the formula, I will do so. Energy lost results in the collision not being completely elastic.
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 16, 2010 1:31:12 GMT -5
Hello again folks. I had a couple hours to kill last night and decided to try and learn MS Paint to see if I could use it to create an accurate and comprehensive New Ball Flight Law Diagram. Attached is my first attempt. Tell me what you think. John Attachments:
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Post by kevcarter on Feb 16, 2010 9:01:59 GMT -5
John,
IMHO, thats really a tough project. I have several of these types of diagrams and they are either too simple, or too hard to understand. I think most up to date teachers get the 85% face program, and don't really need that diagram. What is needed is what you are doing, but simplified so we can use it with our students.
I can't do it, but I really think you are on the right track. Try for more contrast somehow in the lines to differentiate them, and dumb the text way down. I'm pulling for you! :-)
Kevin
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 16, 2010 14:29:53 GMT -5
John, IMHO, thats really a tough project. I have several of these types of diagrams and they are either too simple, or too hard to understand. I think most up to date teachers get the 85% face program, and don't really need that diagram. What is needed is what you are doing, but simplified so we can use it with our students. I can't do it, but I really think you are on the right track. Try for more contrast somehow in the lines to differentiate them, and dumb the text way down. I'm pulling for you! :-) Kevin When I started it, I was like "This can't be that hard." As I was working on it, it was "Oh crap, it needs this and it needs this." Finding a simple one will take some work but I'll let you know if I'm successful. John
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 16, 2010 15:05:00 GMT -5
John, IMHO, thats really a tough project. I have several of these types of diagrams and they are either too simple, or too hard to understand. I think most up to date teachers get the 85% face program, and don't really need that diagram. What is needed is what you are doing, but simplified so we can use it with our students. I can't do it, but I really think you are on the right track. Try for more contrast somehow in the lines to differentiate them, and dumb the text way down. I'm pulling for you! :-) Kevin When I started it, I was like "This can't be that hard." As I was working on it, it was "Oh crap, it needs this and it needs this." Finding a simple one will take some work but I'll let you know if I'm successful. John John, I appreciate that you are trying to tackle what is not a very simple subject. I thought your video's are great form the "church". When I look at these it does make some sense for making adjustments on my ball striking. If I am hitting a straight pull I know I need to get the plane line a little farther right but the face is pretty good, maybe this is an alignment issue for instance. If I am hitting a straight push then maybe I just need to aim the club face a few degrees closed, maybe between the target and where my misses have been going. Now I do wonder if the brain and the machine (your body) can even deal with such small changes as adjusting the clubface a couple degrees or if your mind does not make its on compensations to hit it a certain direction. I mean I never new about ball flight laws but somehow I could make a hook and cut happen. Its easier now but not sure how finite you can be on these "numbers". Hope that makes some sense.
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Post by teacherfitter on Feb 16, 2010 18:57:23 GMT -5
John, Thought you did a good job with a difficult subject. It really makes me wonder how anyone ever learned to play this game before video, Dplane, etc. I am not against learning and improving as a teacher and as a player but I wonder when it becomes TMI, especially when we take into consideration one minute on your watch is six degrees! I take the approach that much of this is to help us as teachers to truly understand what is going on with our students.
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 18, 2010 10:43:46 GMT -5
When I started it, I was like "This can't be that hard." As I was working on it, it was "Oh crap, it needs this and it needs this." Finding a simple one will take some work but I'll let you know if I'm successful. John John, I appreciate that you are trying to tackle what is not a very simple subject. I thought your video's are great form the "church". When I look at these it does make some sense for making adjustments on my ball striking. If I am hitting a straight pull I know I need to get the plane line a little farther right but the face is pretty good, maybe this is an alignment issue for instance. If I am hitting a straight push then maybe I just need to aim the club face a few degrees closed, maybe between the target and where my misses have been going. Now I do wonder if the brain and the machine (your body) can even deal with such small changes as adjusting the clubface a couple degrees or if your mind does not make its on compensations to hit it a certain direction. I mean I never new about ball flight laws but somehow I could make a hook and cut happen. Its easier now but not sure how finite you can be on these "numbers". Hope that makes some sense. I'm glad to hear the videos have helped and made sense. I think, like anything else, the more in tune a golfer becomes with the movements they are making, the greater the likely hood that(to the golfer) small changes in face or path will feel like huge changes. I'm sure you've experienced situations where you made a change that felt really big but looked barely noticeable when on video. Path and face changes can have that same feeling. If you ever have questions, please feel free to ask. John
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