Swings You Don't Understand How They Do It?

[Richie3Jack]

For me, it's Miller Barber. Somebody showed a sequence of his swing and everything I saw I couldn't figure out how he doesn't make a big wipe with every shot. What's yours?





3JACK

[gmbtempe]

to me its JB Holmes, I understand his late cocking of the wrists but everything about it says Ginsu slice to me

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

It may be instructive if you post a swing video of these "difficult-to-understand" swings, so that we can collectively contribute our opinions on how we think that their swings operate from a biomechanical/mechanical perspective.

Different opinions from different forum members may "collectively" improve our general understanding of golf swing mechanics/biomechanics.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

Here's a link to Miller Barber's. The best I could find

Take a look at how closed that clubface is in the backswing.

www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?app=core&module=attach§ion=attach&attach_id=511768



3JACK

[Richie3Jack]

Here's another swing sequence.







3JACK

[jonnygrouville]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7S8LyE0HpY

Clealy from a montage of odd swings (not all of which I agreed with), but this is the one I remember watching growing up. Before I'd heard of Jim Furyk, this was the original 'octupus falling out of a tree', 'man fighting a snake in a phone box', etc.

[Richie3Jack]

Darcy's swing is certainly odd. It has to take a lot to get to a good impact with that top of the swing, but I can see how he does it because he's gradually dropping down onto the incline plane, much like Furyk does. Barber's swing plane is so upright on the downswing until the last second.

Should add Furyk in there as well. Just for the reason I have no idea how he can grip the club with that double overlap grip of his.








3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

Darcy has the same swing fault as Barber. He only gets his right arm higher, which makes it look more odd.



The first image shows Ernie Els end-backswing. A golfer will get into that end-backswing position if he externally rotates the right humerus in the right shoulder socket, which makes the right elbow move under the hands in the late backswing.

Barber and Darcy use the lawnmover move where they pull the right elbow straight back - like pulling a lawnmower cord. Homer Kelley called this a push elbow motion - in contrast to a pitch/punch elbow motion. That motion involves internal rotation of the right humerus in the right shoulder socket, rather than external rotation. If the right humerus internally rotates (in a push elbow action) then the right palm faces outwards-downwards (instead of facing upwards and being parallel to the inclined plane in the mid-backswing). If the right palm faces downwards-outwards, it prevents the left hand from rotating onto the surface of the inclined plane in the mid-backswing (takeaway swivel action). The left hand cannot rotate so the clubface remains closed to the clubhead arc and the left arm is forced to move straight upwards because the right hand prevents the left hand from swiveling onto the inclined plane.

Both Darcy and Barber get away with this strange backswing action, because they immediately adduct the right arm towards the right side of their torso at the start of the downswing, which drives the right elbow to its pitch location in front of the right hip.

Jeff.

[jonnygrouville]

Brilliant. How much of D'Arcy's right hand is on the club at the top? Doesn't look like much of it to me. And Homer can still explain it!

Much like Richie's post about Kenny Perry, it is interesting to see when swings that get off track get back on the straight and narrow. Perry gets in a good position at the top, so all the actions required have taken place, just not necessarily in the order or at the time we expect. A good conventional swing will have the same actions, but there is a better balance of the pivot, hand action, etc. throughout the swing.

Perry get's the green light on for impact, but the lack of co-ordination of the various actions going back might make it look a little funky on the way through. But it has it when it counts.

What has always interested me about the odd swings is how they can hit half shots. Halfway back, Perry hasn't really made much of a pivot and the job of the arms is pretty much done. Surely swinging down from here would just be the most almighty chop.

Is fascinating stuff. Els' swing looks like it would be pretty much green light from start to finish. The red light would be flashing and sirens blaring for D'Arcy until about a foot from impact and only then go green. As far as we amateurs are concerned, we could probably make the light go red from either backswing position!

[Richie3Jack]

For the most part, Perry's downswing looks great. He does keep his right foot flat for almost the entire downswing which is rare. He just has that one small move at the top that is really odd. Other than that, his swing looks great.




3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

Do you think that a golfer should keep the right heel down (right foot flat) for the entire duration of the downswing?

If your answer is "yes" - then my next question is why?

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Mar 8, 2010 0:36:26 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

3jack

Do you think that a golfer should keep the right heel down (right foot flat) for the entire duration of the downswing?

If your answer is "yes" - then my next question is why?

Jeff.

I don't know if its yes or no but I keep mine down until impact.

[jonnygrouville]

I agree Perry looks good into the ball. To me, it looks like his backswing is a story of two halves; the one with the arms picking up the club and the one with the pivot. A 'regular' swing will be more of a blend of the two throughout the action. Sure he makes a good move from there, but must take some serious co-ordination.

In my opinion, and sorry to be answering a question with another question, but if you can get into the ball getting off your right side, achieve your impact alignments, etc. with your right foot on the ground, why not? You may not be a Haney fan, but Woods' iron swings with a flatter right foot look really solid to me.

www.golf.com/golf/gallery/article/0,28242,1881733-6,00.html

[imperfectgolfer]

Jonny,

Tiger's right foot is kept down in that photo, but that is not a common feature of his swing. The question is why he kept it down in that swing.

I think that the answer is simple - he is hitting a short iron and he has narrow stance and he is not using an assertive pivot-driven swing action that causes the pelvis to be open at impact.

By contrast, if a golfer has a i) wider stance, ii) an assertive downswing pelvic rotation motion that causes the pelvis to become significantly open at impact - then the right heel should be lifted at impact. The amount the right heel should lift up depends on a golfer's flexibility. Tiger lifts his right heel a lot when hitting a driver.

Golfers who do not use a rotary pelvic motion (Hogan style left hip clearing action) and who only slide their pelvis left-laterally (eg. S&T golfer and TGM hitter) are far less likely to have an open pelvis at impact - and therefore there is less of a biomechanical imperative to lift the right heel at impact.

I cannot think of a rational reason why a golfer should even think about the issue as to whether his right heel is raised, or flat, at impact - it should simply occur naturally dependent on his i) stance width; ii) degree of open pelvis at impact; iii) degree of weight transfer to a straightened left leg by impact (which is inversely related to the degree of "hanging back"); and iv) degree of flexibility.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

I don't think it is *necessary* to keep the right heel down for the entire duration of the downswing. If that's something you're comfortable with then I don't think it's an issue.

I just think golfers should keep the weight away from the toes of the feet into impact. Things can get a bit dicey from there and I also don't think the golfer is using ground forces properly when the get the weight up on the toes of the foot at impact. The LPGA is filled with these type of swings. Vicky Hurst is one of the few who doesn't do that and IMO, it's not a big coincidence that she's one of the longest LPGA players who can consistently bomb it past say Natalie Gulbis, who is weight up on the point of the shoe at impact.








3JACK