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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 20, 2010 0:36:35 GMT -5
VJ You wrote-: "Just wondered if you ever considered steeping the shoulder turn on the BS? This could help with the DS pivot." First question - do you think that Ben Hogan's or Tiger Woods or Adam Scott's shoulder turn in the backswing is significantly steeper than Greg's? Second question - how would a steeper shoulder turn in his backswing help his downswing pivot? Jeff.
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Post by vjsinger on Jan 20, 2010 11:25:22 GMT -5
VJ You wrote-: "Just wondered if you ever considered steeping the shoulder turn on the BS? This could help with the DS pivot." First question - do you think that Ben Hogan's or Tiger Woods or Adam Scott's shoulder turn in the backswing is significantly steeper than Greg's? Hi Jeff, No I do not believe there is a SIGNIFICANT difference, but I didn't get into the degree of change. I also didn't get into the degree of difference in the hand path either. I'm not sure it matters what Hogan, Tiger or anyone else does as it relates here. I also think you would agree that there is a difference in body type between these golfers and the original poster. Second question - how would a steeper shoulder turn in his backswing help his downswing pivot? IMO, Steeper shoulder turn accompanied by a steeper hip turn and more in AND "up" hand path would all help this golfer "leverage the club better coming down". IMO in pic 3 in the DTL view, the club is much too flat for his abilities/flexibility. "Standing it up more" ala Nicklaus, would really help someone with his build. How do I know this?? I used to have the same issues I've heard him describe and seeing his swing only comfirms this further for me. I'm not a teacher, but this is just an educated guess based on looking at thousands of swings Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 20, 2010 11:52:31 GMT -5
VJ You "seemingly" believe that there must be an "up" component to the pelvis' and shoulders' natural rotational movement in order to steepen the clubshaft's swingpath in the backswing. I personally don't understand that viewpoint because I think that the humeral heads move independently in the shoulder sockets, and I believe that a golfer can easily move the arms upwards without forcing the pelvis and shoulders to move unnnaturally. I regard the natural movement of the pelvis and shoulders as being primarily a horizontal rotational movement. See - www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmPuzgBXEMNote how Hogan rotates his lower body and upper body in a relatively horizontal plane. Here is another example of a golfer - Ryan Moore - who has a very steep clubshaft movement in the backswing. See - www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3lCmj9yrUNote how steeply his arms/club moves in the backswing - while his pelvis and upper torso rotates relatively horizontally. The second point that you expressed - about there being an advantage to having a steeper left arm/club planar movement in the backswing - is also not understandable to me. I like the shallow planar movement of his left arm/clubshaft in the backswing and I cannot understand how he would have better leverage with a steeper backswing action. Jeff.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 20, 2010 12:21:14 GMT -5
3jack You wrote-: "the square/closed shoulders at impact gets you closing the clubface a little early." Could you please explain your proposed causal association - between a square (or slightly closed) shoulder at impact and early closing of the clubface through impact? I cannot understand the biomechanical factors that would predispose to an early closing of the clubface - if the shoulders are square (or slightly closed) at impact, rather than slightly open at impact. Jeff. I think it's safe to say that the clubface closes post impact. Since the shoulders are square/closed, this does force the golfer to swing out to the right a little. From the face on view, the hands 'cross over' past impact. Watch a guy like Hogan and he doesn't do that because he has pivoted so that the shoulders are open at impact. Essentially, getting the shoulders open at impact properly and 'swinging left' gets the golfer properly on plane after impact and keeps the face square past impact. When they are closed or square, the golfer is likely to swing out to the right and close the face with their hands past impact. Thus they are relying more on their hands than their pivot. Many golfers can rely on their hands more, but for the mere mortals like myself, if we get the hands closing the face too early, the shot will be pulled. It's something I'm working on right now with my own swing. 3JACK
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 20, 2010 13:36:19 GMT -5
I have to say Greg, the more I look at your new swing, the more I LOVE it. It looks so much freer and so much more powerful than when we were trying for the Trolio move. I think you are doing a great job!
Kevin
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 20, 2010 13:44:41 GMT -5
Greetings. Just wondered if you ever considered steeping the shoulder turn on the BS? This could help with the DS pivot. Yes...its tough for me. I don't have great flexibility but Brian Manzella suggested the same thing. DariusJ also said something I like, he said the right hip does not just go back, it moves up, if it does not move up most people are pre-desposed to a flat turn. I think this is something to work on.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 20, 2010 13:54:34 GMT -5
VJ You "seemingly" believe that there must be an "up" component to the pelvis' and shoulders' natural rotational movement in order to steepen the clubshaft's swingpath in the backswing. Thats exactly what I have been told by DariusJ who has the following website, he said they were directly related. Now we are taking shoulders here and not the club, though they have to be related. www.biokineticgolfswing.ecom.net.pl/Here is the post, his words italicized and mine underlined Dariusz J., on 18 January 2010 - 06:06 AM, said: TML, on 18 January 2010 - 03:24 AM, said: Darius, do you mean pull your upper body back and up, with the side of the right rib cage or right shoulder? (for a RH swing)
Also, what feeling do you recommend on keeping this spine angle steady during the transition and downswing....thanksI mean pulling up and back with the whole rear side (between hip and shoulder joint both included), the best when utilizing the inertia of the trigger compression. The most important, IMO, is that the rear hip cannot turn too flat (it should turn up and back). If the hips turn too flat and the spine motion is neutral, the shoulders will tend to turn too flat, too. I am not good at expressing feelings, sorry. I prefer mechanical visualization of what should be done at setup together with all other conscious thoughts. I try to visualize a 2-flanged spool (bottom flange is the hips plane and the upper the shoulder plane) moving into 3-D vith an angled axis. This spool is not permitted to move the way both flanges turn on different planes because the core is rock-solid. I saw a good YT vid (made by Monte S.) about maintaining the T letter. My visualization uses a very similar concept with the letter I
CheersI had not heard it expressed like that "If the hips turn too flat and the spine motion is neutral, the shoulders will tend to turn too flat, too"
If the hip moves up and back won't the majority of the weight be on the left foot in the backswing?
Greg
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 20, 2010 14:02:24 GMT -5
Just to respond in one reply to the many responses...of which thanks!
Richie, you are definitely onto something. Instead of helping the club with my right hand I want to work on rotating the shoulders more open and through the shot. This should get me closer to being on plane the entire downswing. I have never been able to feel this move until I was able to fix the transfer issues with my weight. Much credit goes to Manzella instructor Kevin Shields helping me understand the problems my previous weight shift was causing and not allowing me get close to the correct baseline.
John - Contact is the same, maybe better when pulled. It feels a bit flippy when I actually can get the ball pushed out and draw in, think those swings are just timed right.
Kev - I agree, for my swing I think this is going to work better, for others I think the Trolio stuff is perfectly fine.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 20, 2010 14:07:25 GMT -5
Second question - how would a steeper shoulder turn in his backswing help his downswing pivot? Jeff. Jeff, Your last question is a good one, I can tell you some very insightful people have given me the same advice and I assumed they are related.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 20, 2010 14:27:28 GMT -5
Greg You quoted Darius stating "The most important, IMO, is that the rear hip cannot turn too flat (it should turn up and back). If the hips turn too flat and the spine motion is neutral, the shoulders will tend to turn too flat, too." I disagree strongly with the idea that the shoulders will turn too flat if the pelvis rotates horizontally. I think that only way one can influence the degree of uptilting of the right side of the pelvis in the backswing is by straightening the right knee while simultaneously preventing the right thigh from slanting too much to the left. That's what a S&T golfer does, and it allows for a steeper shoulder turn. However, traditional/conventional golfers do not uplift their right side of the pelvis in the backswing. Consider Hogan's swing. www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0 Note that his pelvis rotates horizontally in the backswing - there is no uptilting of the right pelvis. Here is another Hogan end-backswing image. Note that his pelvis is level, and not uptilted on the right. Here is another example - Jamie Sadlowski Note that his pelvis rotates horizontally. Also, note that Hogan and Sadlowski simply rotate their upper torso naturally around their rightwards spinal tilt in the backswing - and that produces their reverse K-look at the end-backswing and a relatively horizontal shoulder turn angle. The right shoulder automatically/naturally gets slightly higher than the left shoulder by the end-backswing position - if one rotates the upper torso naturally/perpendicularly around a rightwards-tilted spine (like Hogan and Sadlowski). Jeff.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 20, 2010 14:39:23 GMT -5
Greg
You wrote-: "Your last question is a good one, I can tell you some very insightful people have given me the same advice and I assumed they are related."
I would like to read their biomechanical/mechanical explanation for claiming that a steeper shoulder turn angle in the backswing helps to make the downswing pivot action more efficient.
If you have Lynn Blake's "Alignment Golf" DVD, you will see that he also recommends a horizontal shoulder turn in the backswing.
One simply rotates the right shoulder back to the TSP during the backswing - by rotating the upper torso naturally/perpendicularly around a rightwards-tilted spine. During this motion, the right shoulder naturally/automatically moves upwards - it becomes slightly higher than the left shoulder at the end of the backswing (the opposite situation of the address shoulder alignment where the right shoulder is significantly lower than the left shoulder).
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 20, 2010 14:45:22 GMT -5
I need to get Lynn's video...its on a long list.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 20, 2010 15:06:40 GMT -5
Richie, you are definitely onto something. Instead of helping the club with my right hand I want to work on rotating the shoulders more open and through the shot. This should get me closer to being on plane the entire downswing. I have never been able to feel this move until I was able to fix the transfer issues with my weight. Much credit goes to Manzella instructor Kevin Shields helping me understand the problems my previous weight shift was causing and not allowing me get close to the correct baseline. We need to get board member John Dochety (aka Lake) over here to help. He's the guy that showed me this in my swing. And after we discussed it I'm positive that it's the big reason why my head tilts down and back. Essentialy the right shoulder gets too low and I run out of right arm come impact because for me, the only way I can get the club to the ball is to really thrust the ever loving hell out of the right arm. One of the things we talked about is that if the shoulders don't get open enough, I'm now prone to getting some face pulls. If the ball goes right, then I'm over-accelerating the hands. Since I've started working on this, I've seen a night and day difference in my 3-wood and 3-hybrid and I like the improvements in my swing and striking, but I've got a long, long way to go. Greg, I think you actually don't swing that far out to the right...not as much as I have been doing. So I don't think you have a long way to go. The right hip 'back and up' is part of 'hip slant' that the S&T, darome and TGM guys talk about. If you have a more vertical hip slant, you're likely to have a more upright shoulder turn. 3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 20, 2010 15:23:21 GMT -5
3jack/Greg,
I also think that it advantageous to have a slightly open shoulder alignment at impact - because it signifies that the right shoulder has moved further downplane, which decreases the likelihood of a golfer running-out-of-right arm. I am therefore an advocate of an assertive downplane movement of the right shoulder in the mid-late downswing. However, I know of no biomechanical reason why one cannot efficiently drive the right shoulder downplane during the downswing - if one has a natural horizontal shoulder turn in the backswing (like Hogan and Sadlowski).
Jeff.
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Post by vjsinger on Jan 20, 2010 16:29:22 GMT -5
Really what we are talking about are feels and communicating feels. Things to consider:1) It is extremely hard to get good advice over the internet and comprehend the advice that may be good and have it be useful to someone that may be getting advice somewhere else, that could be wrong. 2) I am not an expert on anatomy and I know I don't understand it nearly as well as Jeff, but I will have to disagree on one point that I see over and over again and it is that the golf swing is "natural". I apologize for coming across as rude, but NO! Not many things in the golf swing are natural, or come naturally to everyone. If this were the case the average handicap would be MUCH lower. 3) When recieving said advice on a golf swing over the internet sometimes it helps people to hear things that may be false or exaggerations of the truth for the golfers feel purposes, such as hip tilt or slant or turn your hips steeper etc.
IMO what would benefit Greg the most is a feel of hip slant and a feel of his weight going to the rear heel on the backswing. If that feel doesn't work, then having the image of having water in your left ear and at the top of the backswing emptying that water out of the ear a little, which in turn basically gives the spine a little more "lateral flexion" at the top. So in my opinion the two phrases that may help you the most out of my post is. Moving the weight to the rear heel on the BS while increasing lateral flexion a little on the way back. The Stack and Tilt book does a good job of going over that stuff if you have that. I don't like the part about keeping the weight on the left leg for patterns, but I like the rest of it.
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