jerryg
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 100
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Post by jerryg on Feb 4, 2010 10:44:42 GMT -5
Oops. I sent my last one not knowing a bunch of other posts had already been made. Sorry.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 8, 2010 23:11:42 GMT -5
I am reading through some of the posts on Lag's Ball Striking forum and came across this info, it describes pretty much what I was told in my lesson, that the club is not rotated by the arms through the zone that its pulled low and left and then there is this motion up to the shoulder, the faster the better. I guess it should not be surprisizing as both Lag and Denny learned from darome and TGM.
Re: Sequencing the power accumulators with proper intentions by lagpressure » Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:39 pm
I think like delaying #4 as long as possible, or really saving as much of it as possible. It is of course inevitable that the torso will rotate some on the downswing, but after impact, 2 and 3 are unloaded, and if you are turning with flat shoulders to maximize the pivot rotation then you will have had to spend 1 as well to keep the hands on plane. This is one of O Grady’s big points, straighten the right arm out quickly on the downswing as the torso rotates, as if you were dropping your hands into your right hip pocket, this keeps the hand on plane so you don’t come OTT … it is a very strange feeling, but once mastered, very powerful..
The right arm straightens to about 120 degrees at the 3rd parallel then stays frozen through the hitting area and all the way over to the 4rth parallel.. only from then does it try to straighten in sequence with the 5th accumulator.
The key feeling to maximize #5 if you are hitting is to move the shaft low, flat and around to the lefft after impact, then rip the shaft upright to a shoulder plane… with the rotator cuff muscles raising the upper arms quickly off the body.. Norman, Peter Senior, and Tiger all do this very well.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 9, 2010 0:27:24 GMT -5
What's sort of amazing is that Lag never really learned darome. He talked to Mac a little back in the 80's when Lag was trying to take his swing to the next level and found a fellow TGM'er (people don't realize, finding TGM'ers in '97 was like finding a goose that could lay golden eggs for me, back before that it was probably almost impossible).
According to Lag, he's seen a practice session of Mac with some students on video, but there's some things that Mac goes into that in Lag's opinion are not that important and that he doesn't agree with.
But, it's neat that two guys that were intense studies of TGM wound up going beyond TGM in their own direction but came up with two very similar thoughts.
Right before I started the modules, I was getting myself to swing more left and stay on plane and was actually hitting the ball quite well. But, I figured I would add Lag's teaching to my swing and I think that getting into pitch elbow and getting on the elbow plane was probably long overdue for me. So that has me swinging back out to the right for now, but hopefully in a month or so we'll get me 'zeroed out.'
The thing with Lag is that he basically doesn't want the #1 PA used until well after impact. Like Mac, they both believe on 'saving the right arm' well past impact. The toughest thing for me has been not thrusting the right arm and instead keeping hte right arm bent at impact and then just using the wrists and hands to deliver the clubhead to the ball.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 12, 2010 14:28:05 GMT -5
Big swing update I have been messing around with this elbow plane transition and its not as hard as I thought. I still am slightly above it but its really close. This makes it much easier to rotation left, when you come down the TSP for my the arms want to seperate quickly from the body. The pitch elbow and I am not nearly as deep as I want also provides a little flip protection, I would liken it to having the protection that a bowed left wrist provides. This is probably the best non leakage photo I have had in my swing. So here is a list of things I am working on elbow plane....pitch elbow...cp release...angled hinge...sit down move. Its not as hard as I thought to get on the elbow plane (or closer to it) and the pitch elbow as I had thought it would be. The CP release is still tough, I think I am a bit between a CF release and CP release. I need more pull in. When I do it correctly I understand a little what Trevino states when he says its like the face is looking at the target just a little longer because you don't have the same rate of closure. Here are the vids....I think on the DTL I would like to still get the hands more up to drop them down and in but I am much closer to to the magic of the right forearm at P6. compression was super good on these swings. I know the face is closed, thats intentional, it needs to be weakened ever so slightly as all my misses were straight pulls.
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Post by hitman119 on Feb 12, 2010 15:47:14 GMT -5
Looking good. What is the temp? I miss wearing shorts.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 12, 2010 17:27:30 GMT -5
today it was about 70, very nice day.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 12, 2010 19:46:48 GMT -5
yeah, we got SNOW. In freaking Georgia. I cannot understand why anybody who could afford to live in Hawaii would move away from there.
Nice to see your progress. Keep it up.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 13, 2010 15:16:18 GMT -5
I just wanted to post my impact on my first ever video and then yesterday. Improvement can be done with hard work and a little research. I guess I am patting myself on my back a little but so be it, yet at the same time I have so far to go. June flip February no flip ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Thanks to everyone on every forum who has taken the time to help me. Special thanks to Richie, Kev, Jeff Evans, Kevin Shields, Iteach, Bucket.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 15, 2010 11:55:31 GMT -5
Going for another lesson today....I am going to try and get my instructor to sign up here, he reads many boards but only posts on a few.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 15, 2010 14:42:47 GMT -5
Tell him that if he does join and contribute with posts to some degree, he is more than free to plug his work over in the 'promote your stuff' folder.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 15, 2010 21:07:04 GMT -5
I had today probably the best lesson in my life. I am so glad I went and had the lesson rather than playing like had planned. I decided to get the second lesson with Denny Alberts, GSEB, in Tuscon Az relatively soon after my first lesson on the 29th of January mostly because while I had an idea of the concepts we had went over I did not have a grasp. I also had trouble understanding some of the cause and effect of the different pieces we had covered, so this quick follow up cleaned up a lot of things in my head.
Backswing - When I set up the head is as far to the right of the target as its ever going to get. I think I understood this part of the first lesson very well as you have seen my head is no longer moving around. The hands and arms are another story, while I had made improvements and felt like I was not getting them to far behind my body, to low, I still was and once you get out of position on this pattern it is much more difficult to execute. The hands and arms really need to work up. Now here is one of the entire key componets in the pattern, as the arms are working up there is a release of the tilt and your weight not only falls to the target but falls behind you. This is not all that uncommon if you have seen Shawn Clements video on proper downswing weight shift. MOG (Mac) talks about this in his teaching though probably not as pronounced as Denny was today (Mac is very precise about everything). I can see where the SnT people are coming from now, the difference is I will still be every so slightly with a rightwards centered spine. If you don't have this counterfall move then the COG's are not in the correct locations. The counterfall as well helps in the CP of the arms into the body. The counterfall also acts to flattern the plane angle slightly on the downswing, you will see from the video I will add I am not doing this well yet.
Downswing - This pattern works best from the TSP are just inside of it, there is not much of a shift at all, its up and its down. When I say down I mean there is some forward but its down and then left. The head has moved foreward and left, the right shoulder is not actively moving towards the ball until very late in the swing, the flatter you can get that right shoulder, and then having it move away from the ball, at and after impact the better. My hands still need to be quicker, I am going to put up a shawdow video I did with Denny. You can see I start before him and he reaches impact quicker. I need to speed up. I have an issue with my left arm, its in and then down, it actually needs to come over the top ever so slightly. I know this sounds crazy but if you are going to CP I think the right arm is in line with the target line much sooner than if you are going to CF which swings out to the right.
Impact to Finish - I think this is where the magic happens. The left arm is coming down but it is being pulled inside but its not this big sweeping move, its very sharp and hits the breaks just past the hip so you can go into the recocking motion. The left elbow bends quickly once it reaches your left hip has been pulled in. There is a release of your pelvis like in a stack and tilt motion but not nearly as aggressive. The arms go linear, meaning they are working up quickly, I was sending them way left. I understand this motion much better after today.
Head Tilt - my head movement from start to finish before the lesson was it moved up slightly, then down and back on the downswing, and stayed down and centered to finish. The up part is a more a flexibility issue that Denny said we can live with, but the head cannot move down and back, it moves slightly forward and left in the counterfall. The head should tilt to the right at the finish so that the eye line is going at an angle, I would tend to get them horizontal to the ground. This head tilt when done right helps you on the pelvis release, the right shoulder working through the finish, and the recocking of the arms.
I know Denny reads some of these boards and I sent him the link to this one, and as I told him that if I am misrepresenting anything I apologize as I am sure my understanding of the components is a work in progress.
Grip - can go back to a slightly weaker grip now. Its now very closes to my normal.
I left the range really striping it with a pretty efficient motion. I did a shawdow video with Denny, these things are great because if you are working on a pattern you can see the differences. For example you can see Denny's head is moving farther away from the ball better on the backswing and he flattens it out as part of that motion.
The best feeling is now I have a map of where I am going, I just need to fine tune some of the roads.
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Post by cloran on Feb 15, 2010 22:10:35 GMT -5
G' I need to go back and read this entire thread, but I wanted to post this quick. Looking at these recent videos your swing looks very compact, repeatable, and efficient. Congratulations on that!
I have a few questions if you don't mind, and if the answers are in the earlier threads please just tell me so...
What pattern are you trying to represent? Did you teach yourself this swing and then find an instructor to critique, or were you trying to fit this mold from day 1? In these last videos what iron are you hitting? Is this a full swing? It looks like more of a 3/4 swing... and I like that! Your stance looks pretty narrow. Is that part of this pattern, or personal preference?
Again, awesome looking swing. I have read many of your posts and I know you have worked very hard at it... but you make it look really easy. Kudos to you! Sorry for the barrage of questions.
Cloran
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 15, 2010 22:26:09 GMT -5
G' I need to go back and read this entire thread, but I wanted to post this quick. Looking at these recent videos your swing looks very compact, repeatable, and efficient. Congratulations on that! I have a few questions if you don't mind, and if the answers are in the earlier threads please just tell me so... What pattern are you trying to represent? Did you teach yourself this swing and then find an instructor to critique, or were you trying to fit this mold from day 1? In these last videos what iron are you hitting? Is this a full swing? It looks like more of a 3/4 swing... and I like that! Your stance looks pretty narrow. Is that part of this pattern, or personal preference? Again, awesome looking swing. I have read many of your posts and I know you have worked very hard at it... but you make it look really easy. Kudos to you! Sorry for the barrage of questions. Cloran No these are good questions. Richie found Denny's website and sent it to me after talking about my swing and finding a instructor. I had known Denny's name from TGM. The pattern is a bit of a collection of ideas from different instructors, Denny's work with MOG, and TGM. I just found Denny, he asked me if I was open to working on some new things he has been doing the last year after working with Mac (darome), he had been strictly 100 percent Golf Machine. Denny said he had hired Chuck Evans of the Medicus Institute a while back when they both did TGM in Mesa Az. The pattern has several componets The CP release is from Mac. The takeaway is a bit from Natural Golf's Jack Kykendale (sp) and his E2E swing which is controversial. The counterfall is a bit of David Lee concept. The finish is all darome. I am hitting an 8 iron, it was a full swing and I hit it about 160 yards or so. Thats about normal for me. Though it seems like I am swinging easier but with better compression distance has not changed. The stance is open to the ball target line, the left foot is flared. This is part of the pattern. Narrow stance at first but it really is going to be up to the student once they have an idea what is best for their balance. Thanks for the compliments, I have worked hard but its been fun.
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Post by cloran on Feb 16, 2010 10:38:51 GMT -5
That's very interesting, G.
So Denny is "experimenting" with you a bit, is that fair to say?
I've followed Kuykendall's stuff for a while. I'm a "seeker" of information on the golf swing so I joined his site and I'm intruiged by his beliefs. His newest incarnation "E2E" has been discussed a little on other boards, but with minimul positive support. His LPG had a decent following and I'm waiting to see if this will be the same... he is certainly a brilliant man. I did notice in the shadowing vids that your instructor has a bent left arm at the top of the back swing (more than yours) and I immediately thought of E2E... pretty cool stuff.
160yrds for an 8i is fantastic distance for any swing, nevermind such a compact 3/4 swing. I'd bet that your dispersion is way down and consistency way up, am I right?
A few more questions if you don't mind: Where did Denny learn the E2E? Are you actively firing the hands through impact (I still confuse CF with CP... but my guess is no... you let the pivot deliver them, right?)? What's Denny's last name? I'd like to check out his site as well.
Thanks for you help. I love the Frankenstein approach to the golf swing... love it!
Cloran
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Post by kevcarter on Feb 16, 2010 10:46:00 GMT -5
Greg, AWESOME post. Sounds to me as though you may have found the best kept secret in golf when you found this guy!
Kevin
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