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Post by teeace on Dec 24, 2012 10:49:13 GMT -5
Are you suggesting that those 2 swings were done without actually hitting a golf ball? Not at all. What I'm saying is that those measurements are so bad I would ever show those. So in honest way. Device to measure those swings is bad or badly adjusted and tuned or both. So there is not one part of those graphs that one should use to prove something. And no one with some understanding of physics can see it right away. Manzella couldn't. But someone could really ask them to explain what I asked... and get banned ;D ;D
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Post by playa on Dec 24, 2012 11:30:02 GMT -5
When the emperor is wearing nothing, are we supposed to saying something or not? I have no beef with M the person. I simply hate people getting hosed because of wishful thinking and make belief science.
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Post by jeffy on Dec 24, 2012 11:49:34 GMT -5
"Interesting" discussion on that M thread where several posters talked about hip rotation. Couple have indicated, sheepishly I will add, that by being more conscious of incorporating hip rotation into their swings, they actually found that they hit better. One quickly added he also previously worked with his hand path just to show he is not one to rock the boat. Then a die hard M follower shared a personal story. Apparently for years he learned golf from magazines (nothing wrong with that) and used to rotate hip a great deal and later when he restricted his hip rotation he started to swing better. So he came up with the conclusion that excessive hip rotation is bad. His shortened hip rotation is good for him. This "interesting" revelation is interesting not because whether more or less hip rotation is optimal, but that people believe what they want to believe. You see, as a person improves with golf mechanics and understanding, with time, with practice, with feedbacks from experiences, the person consciously as well as subconsciously incorporates better moves into their swings. In other words, just by sleeping and thinking about swing mechanics, people are often rewarded with aha moments. When a player swings a wide and excessive hip turn, chances are there are also other accompanying faults in the swing, related to that or independent factors. When the player becomes more aware and IMPROVES the QUALITY of his turn--shortened, lengthened or staying the same length for that matter --other parts of the golf swing also improve as a whole. As a player with no reliable and high- quality, on- going feedback (like a reality TV camera 24/7) specifically focused on him, there is little chance that he himself can reliably and accurately recollect all the details. So he does the best he can do: pick and choose and try to make sense of it the only way he knows and come up with his own version of the components and sequences of events. A subjective recollection and reconstruction. This phenom is quite prevalent in golf learning by adults. Most folks tend to learn on their own in the range instead of booking lessons from time zero. Therefore, looking back, most will acknowledge that they knew very little and did not know a great deal. What they knew then and what they know now cannot equate because perspectives have changed. When 200 things are quietly undergoing changes, we humans pick and choose couple things that are most obvious to us and rationalize a tale with them. When a player self admits his hip rotation is "excessive", stop right there. Excessive hip rotation does not equate to full hip rotation that is optimal to a particular player's physique and condition. Restricting hip rotation is akin to the infamous X factor swing which is extremely dangerous to people with predisposition to spinal disc injuries. A big no no for most folks. "Hip turn in the backswing" is simply too vague. One can make a big wide hip turn, or a short one, that puts the player in a position to slide and stall, or the player can make a big, wide hip turn that gets the player perfectly positioned for the downswing. The video analysis I posted earlier of Rich Amoroso is a vivid case study. The trick is to know the difference, which nobody knows at The Land of the Blind.
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Post by teeace on Dec 24, 2012 12:54:56 GMT -5
When the emperor is wearing nothing, are we supposed to saying something or not? I have no beef with M the person. I simply hate people getting hosed because of wishful thinking and make belief science. Just same here. Including the using of graphs that any expert starts to laugh in few seconds after seeing those. C'moon someone.. ask those questions I made. I'd love to see how they answer ;D ;D
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Post by playa on Dec 24, 2012 13:41:21 GMT -5
Jeffy, agree and that was my point on quality of hip rotation. That player indeed made great stride. Sounds like a very mindful person with deliberate plans of action. Kudos. What will be more interesting to see is scaled- down versions of that swing when applying to all clubs in the bag (not putter of course). It will be particularly revealing to see how now he swings his partial wedges, for example, when power is not of importance but accuracy and control. teeace, you know folks there will find it extremely hard to point out the nakedness of the emperor:) Read up a bit on Stockholm Syndrome and have a chuckle. www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1920301,00.html
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 24, 2012 16:54:17 GMT -5
Tapio -
When are you going to put your system/beliefs in one place where everyone can see how you're more correct than everyone else? You make bold claims how everyone else is wrong in the 3D world and yet your system isn't even available for purchase ad I'm not sure anyeone truly knows what you think/believe. We can't piece-meal it together.
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Post by teeace on Dec 24, 2012 17:07:49 GMT -5
Tapio - When are you going to put your system/beliefs in one place where everyone can see how you're more correct than everyone else? You make bold claims how everyone else is wrong in the 3D world and yet your system isn't even available for purchase ad I'm not sure anyeone truly knows what you think/believe. We can't piece-meal it together. CW, I know you are not the sharpest knife, but that what I said can be so easy to see for anyone who has done some of his homework and I would never publish that kind of shit. And try to understand, this got nothing to do with me or our system. Nothing. Zero. It's just poor measurement and poor results and poor "scientist" who failed to trap and used those. Or maybe you want to answer to those questions I made as we know your high level skills at math.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Dec 24, 2012 17:15:19 GMT -5
So you just can't or won't explain it. That's okay.
This has got everything to do with your system. You routinely assert everyone else is wrong in the 3D world without explanation. You are the CTO of a wireless 3D system (pretty cool if it works IMO) that isnt' ready for market yet. You have an inherent bias. Nobody knows if you're right or wrong when it comes to your 3D claims.
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Post by rj on Dec 25, 2012 0:28:42 GMT -5
What's with all the hate?
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Post by teeace on Dec 25, 2012 2:37:43 GMT -5
So you just can't or won't explain it. That's okay. This has got everything to do with your system. You routinely assert everyone else is wrong in the 3D world without explanation. You are the CTO of a wireless 3D system (pretty cool if it works IMO) that isnt' ready for market yet. You have an inherent bias. Nobody knows if you're right or wrong when it comes to your 3D claims. Tota l bullshit CW, this got everything to do wit BMan and his lack of ability to understand things what he is talking about. On his side he just needs guys like you who are still ready to pay for him about that. The only thing that connects this to our device is that I've seen so many badly measured and filtered graphs that I recognize them right away. There it is about most obvious I've seen and if BMan understands a bit about what he is talking about or his "scientists" understands it, they never would use those. I told you where to look, I will not tell you what to see. It's there and tells everything. I tell you to look again and think about the blue line at our graph. Then look back those BMans graphs and think if club head can really behave like that.
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Post by playa on Dec 26, 2012 7:36:54 GMT -5
Nitty Gritty:
I see the content of that M thread has shifted from talking about graphs and sequencing to roles and definitions of "hips" and "pelvis". I think talking about hips in M forum is a needed paradigm shift, instead of the usual barrage of compensation moves that have been passed along like treasures. When M starts a terrible thread, people have enough sense to talk about what is more important.
But here is the short version of things on hips and pelvis: when used loosely in golf nomenclature for the general public which is 99.99% of golf related folks, those 2 terms are being used and can be used interchangeably. Both refer to the general area of the pelvic girdle as it rotates around the spinal axis, as in hip turn, pelvic turn. Although the anatomical hip joints have their own independent ball and socket rotational properties, both contribute to the pelvic girdle range of motion which is what people refer to and measure. It is an acceptable and reasonable point of reference. I don't like the term "muscle memory" -- I am pretty sure no one implies that muscle fibers have a little brain--but it serves the purpose for routine dialog.
To talk about hip joint rotation per se is a waste of time and a source of confusion because the so called measurement so far specifically in reference to the hip joint is far from being accurate. Why is that?
Here is what medical researchers measure hip rotation, correctly, ala the gold standard: a pin penetrates the skin and soft tissue and is lodged into the femur head at the desired orientation location. As the hip joint moves, the pin accurately reflects the range of motion. Short of doing that, a sensor pasted on the soft tissue covering the femur head can provide highly unreliable readings (think about 2 subjects one is thin as bone the other filled up like a tire)
What is learning golf? To lower score and to enjoy the process. Many discussions on these forums go way too deep into subjects to be helpful. That is why one often bumps into talking heads whose golf game remain forever sucky because time has been wasted and brain clogged on things that are esoteric, irrelevant if not intimidating. Golf at its best is natural and subconscious. Consciously unconscious. Most talking heads can't play because their heads are filled to the rim with junk, their neuromuscular system shut. They "know" "everything". Can't do anything right.
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Post by chicagogolfcoach on Dec 26, 2012 23:16:12 GMT -5
" What is learning golf? To lower score and to enjoy the process. Many discussions on these forums go way too deep into subjects to be helpful. That is why one often bumps into talking heads whose golf game remain forever sucky because time has been wasted and brain clogged on things that are esoteric, irrelevant if not intimidating. Golf at its best is natural and subconscious. Consciously unconscious. Most talking heads can't play because their heads are filled to the rim with junk, their neuromuscular system shut. They "know" "everything". Can't do anything right. "
Truer words have never been spoken. I agree 100%
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Post by lia41985 on Dec 27, 2012 0:40:30 GMT -5
Preach
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