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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 11, 2013 10:24:19 GMT -5
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burner
Beat up Radials
Posts: 14
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Post by burner on Jan 11, 2013 18:12:49 GMT -5
Me too.
Could this be the work of Ian Clark, GSEM?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 11, 2013 18:47:10 GMT -5
I honestly have no idea whose site it is.
3JACK
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Post by mchepp on Jan 11, 2013 20:25:10 GMT -5
I am a bit ashamed to say it (because I have read the Yellow Book before), but it is the best description I have seen to explain PA3. I have heard and read the definition multiple times before, but this is description made me understand it the best.
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Post by teeace on Jan 12, 2013 0:02:41 GMT -5
I am a bit ashamed to say it (because I have read the Yellow Book before), but it is the best description I have seen to explain PA3. I have heard and read the definition multiple times before, but this is description made me understand it the best. And for me it felt just one more misunderstanding  I read it again if I get more sense about it.. |
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Rich M
Beat up Radials
Go Bolts!
Posts: 14
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Post by Rich M on Jan 12, 2013 16:43:11 GMT -5
Great link. Being out of commission for a while due to a wrist injury, I have ample time to read and watch some quality videos. The current items on my queue are: Lynn Blake's "Alignment Golf" DVD, Manzella's "Confessions of a Former Flipper", R3J's "2012 Pro Golf Synopsis", and on order H.K.'s "TGM 7th Ed"
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Post by gmbtempe on Jan 12, 2013 21:12:46 GMT -5
I am a bit ashamed to say it (because I have read the Yellow Book before), but it is the best description I have seen to explain PA3. I have heard and read the definition multiple times before, but this is description made me understand it the best. I see no reason why a player would want a lot of #3 accumulator, seems like an unnecessary timing element that provides a limited amount of power. |
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Post by teeace on Jan 13, 2013 1:07:43 GMT -5
I am a bit ashamed to say it (because I have read the Yellow Book before), but it is the best description I have seen to explain PA3. I have heard and read the definition multiple times before, but this is description made me understand it the best. I see no reason why a player would want a lot of #3 accumulator, seems like an unnecessary timing element that provides a limited amount of power. It really depends how we see it released. It's amazing some people still fall to that old trap and think that left shoulder is still If that rotation happens like they show at PA3 there, it means that hand speed had to drop near zero before impact. Even to be able to actively rotate club and wrist like that, while maximal hand speed is retained, requires muscular power of 20 giants in arms, so no human being can produce it. That rotation move doesn't add any power. Zero. What it adds is few more timing components and much much quicker rate of closure that has to be timed with active work of forearms, wrists and at the same time stalling pivot to get hands decelerate enough. |
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Post by teeace on Jan 13, 2013 10:58:34 GMT -5
So... about PA3.. Here is one graph that shows big difference between some tour players (all higher lines) agains some top level amateurs.  That graph tells us how the whole left arm rotates around the vertical axis drawn through the neck. In other words: where the left arm is pointing in 2D scale from top down. As we can see those upper lines are steeper, we also know the speed of that movement is higher. We don't yet got that as a speed so we just have to read these. Now from the same orientation to zero we can see huge difference in time what they use to that. But to understand what really happens we have to add lateral orientation to that graph and then we really see the difference Scr level amateur in this graph who pulls the handle to the ball and flips and crosses it over. Red line indicates the lateral movement toward the target and blue is that orientation as at the first image  And now the tour player...  So to read this it tells us that this amateur got much more lateral movement and less around his body movement in his hands, as the tour player is going much more around him about without any independent lateral movement. |
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 13, 2013 13:53:57 GMT -5
Evening gents, I'm the author of TheSwingEngineer. I don't often post on forums as they're usually the online equivalent of bald men arguing over a comb. But I thought I'd at least say hello and thank those of you who liked the site. Mr Teeace seems to have gone off on a tangent when it comes to my site and the 3rd Power Accumulator. All I've done is explain what it actually is - quoting from, and referencing, TGM. Again, the pictures simply demonstrate what the 3PA is, nothing more. Anyway, enjoy the remainder of your weekend and "happy g.o.l.f.ing" to you all.  |
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Post by teeace on Jan 13, 2013 14:18:16 GMT -5
Evening gents, I'm the author of TheSwingEngineer. I don't often post on forums as they're usually the online equivalent of bald men arguing over a comb. But I thought I'd at least say hello and thank those of you who liked the site. Mr Teeace seems to have gone off on a tangent when it comes to my site and the 3rd Power Accumulator. All I've done is explain what it actually is - quoting from, and referencing, TGM. Again, the pictures simply demonstrate what the 3PA is, nothing more. Anyway, enjoy the remainder of your weekend and "happy g.o.l.f.ing" to you all. Thanks for stepping in and response. My point was that this PA3 can work in two different ways and also without forearm rotation. So I feel this image  has been leading many players to the wrong path. That's not at all your fault and just wanted to explain that common misunderstanding. |
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Rich M
Beat up Radials
Go Bolts!
Posts: 14
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Post by Rich M on Jan 13, 2013 14:59:24 GMT -5
Evening gents, I'm the author of TheSwingEngineer. I don't often post on forums as they're usually the online equivalent of bald men arguing over a comb. But I thought I'd at least say hello and thank those of you who liked the site. Mr Teeace seems to have gone off on a tangent when it comes to my site and the 3rd Power Accumulator. All I've done is explain what it actually is - quoting from, and referencing, TGM. Again, the pictures simply demonstrate what the 3PA is, nothing more. Anyway, enjoy the remainder of your weekend and "happy g.o.l.f.ing" to you all. Love your website and the interactive examples of hinge actions and ball flight. I even bought the "beginners guide to address and basic motion" ebook. Short story about myself. I only started playing golf 2.5 years ago. The first 1.5 years, I went about it haphazardly, reading tips from Golf Digest and following the advice of everybody who had an opinion about my swing. Last May I started taking lessons from a young instructor who really "helped" me get from about a 115 to a 99-100 consistently. But I had many questions and doubts he couldn't answer and was teaching me to time the swing. On a whim, I took 3 lessons from a local teacher and R3J Top 50 instructor, Denny Alberts. He broke down my main faults and had me feeling lag pressure and compressing the ball like I never had before. Ive actually gone down to consistently scoring in the low 90's and my last 3 games I scored 86, 89, and 83.... so you may scoff at my poor scores, but I'm seeing improvement for the fIrst time since I took up golf. The problem is that many of my old bad habits would creep in shortly after the lessons, specially on the course. All of these experiences led me to realize that I needed to start from scratch and build up. Rich's blog has been instrumental in my desire to become a decent ball striker. I know there are different schools of thought on the golf swing, but as a starting point, I've decided to immerse myself in TGM. Therefore, theswingengineer.com website, among a bunch of other material out there is helping me understand the steps I need to take. Once my wrist heals I plan on approaching Denny Alberts to see if we can go over TGM in a structured manner. I know he is a darome instructor, and actually hope he can go over the differences. |
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 13, 2013 16:37:23 GMT -5
Hey Teeace
If I'm right in understanding what you're saying, I completely agree with you. You certainly don't have to actively rotate your wrists anti-clockwise through impact to bring the clubface to the ball. You can, as I think you've implied, rely on the anti-clockwise turning of the shoulders to do this for you.
However, this second way of doing it, without the active forearm rotation, isn't the 3PA. They may look the same but they're not. I'll explain why...
Mr Kelley states in 7-4; "It may appear that some of the Accumulators omitted from some combinations are still actually present in the action. But their participation is negligible, incidental or minimal."
If your wrists are passive and are only being rotated* through impact by the pivot pushing the whole of your left arm through impact, then that 3PA motion is incidental. That's to say you're not actively controlling the Secondary Lever Assembly, you're controlling the Primary Lever Assembly, and that happens to be affecting the Secondary Lever Assembly.
As an aside, this "passive wrists 3PA" is actually the 4PA. The turning shoulders pushing the left arm through impact.
I hope I've understood you properly and my explanation makes sense!
(*of course the wrists may not be rotating at all - they only give the appearance of doing so because the pivot is rotating)
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 13, 2013 16:47:43 GMT -5
Hi Rich,
I'm glad you like the website - I hope it's useful!
Scoring in the 80s after only a couple of years is great going. There are plenty of old gents at my club who have played for 30+ years and still struggle to break 90.
Wait for that wrist to heal, get back to those lessons and best of luck to you!
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 13, 2013 18:46:20 GMT -5
This thread has been moved to the teacher folder. So, there will be no antagonistic behavior allowed in this thread. You can ask questions, make comments, but 'keep it clean.'
3JACK
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