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Post by teeace on Jan 14, 2013 0:58:39 GMT -5
Hey Teeace If I'm right in understanding what you're saying, I completely agree with you. You certainly don't have to actively rotate your wrists anti-clockwise through impact to bring the clubface to the ball. You can, as I think you've implied, rely on the anti-clockwise turning of the shoulders to do this for you. However, this second way of doing it, without the active forearm rotation, isn't the 3PA. They may look the same but they're not. I'll explain why... Mr Kelley states in 7-4; "It may appear that some of the Accumulators omitted from some combinations are still actually present in the action. But their participation is negligible, incidental or minimal." If your wrists are passive and are only being rotated* through impact by the pivot pushing the whole of your left arm through impact, then that 3PA motion is incidental. That's to say you're not actively controlling the Secondary Lever Assembly, you're controlling the Primary Lever Assembly, and that happens to be affecting the Secondary Lever Assembly. As an aside, this "passive wrists 3PA" is actually the 4PA. The turning shoulders pushing the left arm through impact. I hope I've understood you properly and my explanation makes sense! (*of course the wrists may not be rotating at all - they only give the appearance of doing so because the pivot is rotating) Good post swingengineer, but I feel mr Kelley forget the 3rd way as it looks like the same but made with other muscles: whole arm rotation instead of forearm. So how can we see what is real PA3 and what is not if we only look at the back of the left hand and it's orientations? How can we use that information in instruction or do we make wrong assumptions by that?
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 14, 2013 6:47:50 GMT -5
You're right again Teeace, there is a third way - rotating the whole left arm. Mr Kelley actually goes into a lot of detail on this way of controlling the rotation of the left wrist. You may have heard of it....
I explain in my website; "We’ve already discussed movement of the hands in the Power Accumulator chapter, namely the Second and Third Accumulators. These Accumulators relate to the Secondary Lever Assembly, where the left wrist is the fulcrum. Hinge Action describes how we can move the hands not from the left wrist, but from the left shoulder. It is a closer look at the fulcrum of the Primary Lever Assembly, through impact and beyond."
That whole left arm rotation isn't the 3PA, it's hinge action, TGM 7-10.
You make an excellent point about knowing which accumulators are "actively" in use by just looking at a golf stroke. The honest answer is you can't. In reality, almost every swing you see appears to have every accumulator. The right arm bends, the left wrist cocks and rotates, the left arm moves closer to the body. But that's only what you can see, that's the "geometry". The Power Package concept in TGM isn't just about the geometry, it describes the "physics" of the stroke- what actually powers it. So when you watch a downswing and see the right arm straightening, the left arm coming away from the body, the left wrist uncocking and then rotating through impact you can see the geometry of all the accumulators. But if that person swinging the club produced those motions by actively straightening the right arm, and nothing else, then that person was using only one power accumulator. The other motions were "incidental" just as Mr Kelley mentions in 7-4.
As for using that kind of information in instruction, do you really have to? When Mr Smith comes to me for a lesson, it's to improve his swing, not his understanding of TGM terminology. I'll certainly explain TGM concepts to students but only in layman's terms and only if it's relevant and necessary to improving their swing.
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Post by kevcarter on Jan 14, 2013 7:08:23 GMT -5
Really enjoying your stuff swingengineer!
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Post by teeace on Jan 14, 2013 7:18:01 GMT -5
Great conversation going on here and I hope it continues and takes us deeper inside of the golf swing.
As been measuring about 500 players now and having more than 1000 in our database, one thing seems to be totally clear, or at least 98%.
The club head speed is dependent of maximal hand speed achieved at some part of the downswing. At some part is very important there, as it doesn't seem to matter if it's earlier or later and if it's decelerating more or less before impact. And still have to add that it works only after certain hand speed and some people with low hand speed don't fit to this, but they are anyway usually short hitters.
So we come to the next few questions: 1. How can one produce high hand speed? 2. Is it possible to release that PA3 actively and can one gain some advantage by it? 3. Is there some other reasons why having all those angles released late enough (and how) is giving some advantage for us?
So the simple question is: are those PA2 and 3 really accumulators, or is there some other reason why having tight angles there is an advantage?
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 14, 2013 10:56:05 GMT -5
Thanks Kevcarter, I hope it makes sense.
Teeace, I'm not going to be of much use answering those kind of questions. When it comes to maximum hand speed, and where on the swing that takes place, I'm no expert. I haven't studied those elements of the swing in the same detail as yourself.
As for releasing the 3PA actively, you can certainly do it and it can be advantageous. The thing to remember when discussing concepts like this from TGM is that as far as the book is concerned, there is no one proper way to swing a club. There are literally hundreds of millions of different "precision strokes" that could all get you on tour. So when I say "yes you can actively use the 3PA and yes it can improve your swing", that only goes for certain swings. For other swings it would be useless or detrimental.
As for maintaining the accumulators until late in the downswing, that's certainly one way to swing, but again it's not essential. Mr Kelley explains in 6-F. He says "The term "Timing," as used in Golf, means to bring about Impact during the moment of the Clubhead's maximum Force." How you release the accumulators simply facilitates that goal. You can release them last minute as per 10-24-D and E or gradually release them from the start of the downswing, as per 10-24-A. It doesn't matter which.
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Post by teeace on Jan 14, 2013 13:31:43 GMT -5
As for releasing the 3PA actively, you can certainly do it and it can be advantageous. . Thats the whole point. There is only two ways to release it actively: 1. You got very low hand speed, so you can get advantage of that. 2. You decelerate a lot your hands to impact. There is no way one human being can keep on the hand speed and release actively PA3 by forearms. So the second part makes that accumulator useless if we try to use it with our forearms (like rolling wrists) but very useful if we use the whole body and whole arm muscles rotating the whole shaft and hands around us. All players who I've seen using forearms to that got huge deceleration in their hand speed and by that the whole club speed (butt end speed) slows down. Both styles get about same CHS as far as their maximum hand speed at some moment, no matter at what moment, in DSW has been the same.
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 14, 2013 14:15:39 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree with you there Teeace. But the point of my website, and me answering your questions here, is to explain what exactly those golfing machine concepts are and how they work. When it comes to what's actually useful in any particular golf stroke, that's a whole other discussion and not one I have the time or enthusiasm to get into on an online forum!
Keep up the swing research Teeace, and any more questions you have regarding my site, send them my way.
I have to say I'm surprised the 3PA is getting so much attention when the "Problems with the D Plane" and "Ball Behaviour" chapters from my site are far more controversial considering the commonly accepted understanding of such things!
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Post by teeace on Jan 14, 2013 14:36:20 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree with you there Teeace. But the point of my website, and me answering your questions here, is to explain what exactly those golfing machine concepts are and how they work. When it comes to what's actually useful in any particular golf stroke, that's a whole other discussion and not one I have the time or enthusiasm to get into on an online forum! Keep up the swing research Teeace, and any more questions you have regarding my site, send them my way. I have to say I'm surprised the 3PA is getting so much attention when the "Problems with the D Plane" and "Ball Behaviour" chapters from my site are far more controversial considering the commonly accepted understanding of such things! Sorry swingengineer that I forget to say I liked a lot of your site. I sometimes (too often? ) get excited of something I see and put my attention to that. Nothing in my posts was against your site or information you share. They are basics like you said and they should be understood. The problem is that I was in the swamp so long by teaching and doing that forearm rotation before I found my present way... and get it proven few years later with 4DSwing measurements. And I feel misunderstanding of PA3, or maybe limited thinking of many people about how that hand can be brought to this position differently was the main reason for my long journey to the wrong direction. I try to spend bit more time on your site and I'm sure you will get some questions from me. As well if you want to ask something that I could help, just feel free to ask.
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Post by dennyalberts1 on Jan 15, 2013 12:22:40 GMT -5
Like your site. Having been awarded a GSEB in 04 and couple hundred hrs with mac I feel blessed that I might be going down right road to helping people feed my family and become famous. I spend my non teaching hrs, in "research" (trying stuff). It always feel promising that day but seems to look foolish with hind sight. I understand that the basic concept of the Tao religion is that if think that you have "FOUND IT" you are mistaken. Same with golf. Stay humble , stay open to new concepts, be ready to reverse course..Adjust to your students abilities and have fun. Homer did not fully explain the pivot very well. Mac certainly expanded Homer's work. Homer tried to put things in a simple box such as that a person could be just a hitter or a swinger. Probably not true. They tried to help Yogi Berra with his baseball swing and he said "You want me to think and swing". Avoid Teachers that teach-- Low and Slow----. Hiber extended left arm ---- Straight back on set up-----------left thumb straight down on grip---------drive your legs--------hold that wrist cock ------------------keep your head down . Find a teacher that can show you how to take the same amount of divot .Divot can be shallow I teach less forward lean then I use to. Il like the tour tempo stuff. I teach a a good grip and a balance posed finish . a recoil is fine too.. I
like to put a pre molded grip on a training club I adjust the right hand stronger . I have them get a swingyde(ebay 4 $) and a cutting board to practice making the right thud on board and hold that finish. My main student David McDaniel never hits a practice shot with out a tee under right arm pit. Must use high speed video. Ping putting app is awesome. Fades grow up to be slices. Keep up the journey . Love this site. But arguments about hip movement is great to pass the time but does to improve the students results.. . Concerta is wearing off. This took 45 minutes Teach your kids to type and have good credit scores.
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Post by dennyalberts1 on Jan 15, 2013 12:33:41 GMT -5
That Denny guy writes like he has adhd. Oh that's me. I also have a memory like Lenny from the movie Momento.. I have no idea what I taught last week but I probably disagree with it because me and Brian know every thing now . Unlike that unenlightend stuff of last week.
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 15, 2013 12:56:14 GMT -5
Glad you like the site Denny. Keep up the good work
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Post by chicagogolfcoach on Jan 15, 2013 16:44:40 GMT -5
I must say this thread has been a very enjoyable thread to read...verses some I have been reading lately, nice to see people act like adults and show respect for one another, whether they agree or not. Nice job on site swingengineer and always a pleasure to hear from Kev and Denny....you too tee
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 15, 2013 19:10:43 GMT -5
I must say this thread has been a very enjoyable thread to read...verses some I have been reading lately, nice to see people act like adults and show respect for one another, whether they agree or not. Nice job on site swingengineer and always a pleasure to hear from Kev and Denny....you too tee they don't have a choice, sir. That's the beauty of the teacher folder. Antagonistic behavior is not tolerated. Do it and they will be gone. 3JACK
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Rich M
Beat up Radials
Go Bolts!
Posts: 14
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Post by Rich M on Jan 29, 2013 15:26:22 GMT -5
Hi Rich, I'm glad you like the website - I hope it's useful! Scoring in the 80s after only a couple of years is great going. There are plenty of old gents at my club who have played for 30+ years and still struggle to break 90. Wait for that wrist to heal, get back to those lessons and best of luck to you! Thanks a lot for the words of encouragement. In all honestly, before I bought your ebook, I would take my swing back haphazardly. Not that it was all over the place, but the feel would change during a round of golf. Sometimes I would start with the shoulders, or both hands. I've been practicing my takeaway at home with the right arm pulling, fanning and tracing. (Basic motion) The question that I still have is: what are the alignments or next steps to take the club back to the top of the swing? I know this is a very simple question, but I'd rather ask (and learn) than assume. Once I start my lessons with Denny, I also need to ask him about the alignments on the backswing. I don't know if its a darome "thing" or a Denny "thing" , but he had me "heaving a ball over my shoulders" as the takeaway move. In my experience, very simple and effective, as he always had me in a good position to make contact with the ball....it's just that this time around I would like to understand things a little more intellectually than just by feel.
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Post by theswingengineer on Jan 29, 2013 17:03:15 GMT -5
Hi Rich, I'm glad you like the website - I hope it's useful! Scoring in the 80s after only a couple of years is great going. There are plenty of old gents at my club who have played for 30+ years and still struggle to break 90. Wait for that wrist to heal, get back to those lessons and best of luck to you! Thanks a lot for the words of encouragement. In all honestly, before I bought your ebook, I would take my swing back haphazardly. Not that it was all over the place, but the feel would change during a round of golf. Sometimes I would start with the shoulders, or both hands. I've been practicing my takeaway at home with the right arm pulling, fanning and tracing. (Basic motion) The question that I still have is: what are the alignments or next steps to take the club back to the top of the swing? I know this is a very simple question, but I'd rather ask (and learn) than assume. Once I start my lessons with Denny, I also need to ask him about the alignments on the backswing. I don't know if its a darome "thing" or a Denny "thing" , but he had me "heaving a ball over my shoulders" as the takeaway move. In my experience, very simple and effective, as he always had me in a good position to make contact with the ball....it's just that this time around I would like to understand things a little more intellectually than just by feel. Hi Rich, how's it going? I'm glad the ebook's helped and given you something to think about and work on. As for what comes after that basic motion, that would be "acquired motion". With acquired motion, the backswing stops around where the right forearm is level with the ground, and then the swing ends around the same distance past the ball. Acquired motion is where you will introduce some pivoting motion. You'll need to continue keeping the right forearm on plane and work on making those few feet through the ball exactly the same for the longer acquired motion swing as it was for your basic motion. Try to make the motion as simple as possible with as few moving parts as you can. Unfortunately, as the length of the swing increases, there are more things to go wrong and for people to start customising their swings. Because of that, a one-size-fits-all ebook wouldn't be very effective. If you want a simple list of things to do in your swing, I suggest you look up the "essentials" and "imperatives" on my website. Keep at it Rich and good luck with the lessons!
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