Post by theswingengineer on Jan 15, 2013 17:05:00 GMT -5
I’d been directed to a critique of my explanation of the 3PA on another forum. The author raises some valid arguments and makes some misunderstandings which are worth addressing. I hope Richie doesn’t mind if I post my reply here as I don’t have the time to sign up to several forums.
Here’s the link.
newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=golfinstruction&action=display&thread=423
Read the critique in full there, below I’ll respond to a few of his (Jeff’s) points.
“The SE's definition is obviously wrong. He states-: "For a start, it’s an accumulator that doesn’t accumulate. It works by maintaining its “in line” condition.(1) Then he quotes HK -: That “in line” condition, in Mr Kelley’s words, is where “...the entire left arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the left hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane- the plane of the left wristcock motion.”(2)
If a PA doesn't doesn't accumulate then it cannot contribute to swing power. However, PA#3 works as a PA by accumulating power in the backswing by rotating the entire LAFW clockwise around its longitudinal axis, and it then releases that power by rotating the entire LAFW counterclockwise during the release swivel action that happens between P6.5 and P7.”
I’d ask Jeff to do two things here. Firstly, read the introduction to Power Accumulators I make on the Power Package page of my site. I write;
“So what defines a Power Accumulator? Put simply, they are “out of line” conditions, by which I mean “not in a straight line”. During the above five stage sequence of Accumulation, Loading, Storing, Delivering and Releasing, we will be moving our Power Accumulators to an “out of line” condition (or more accurately, to a more “out of line” condition than they were at address), before releasing their stored power by moving the accumulators back to an “in line” condition.”
Secondly I’d ask Jeff to turn to the glossary of The Golfing Machine and look up “Power Accumulation”. Here Mr Kelley writes “The process of Loading Power Accumulators during their Out-of-Line Configuration”.
So when I write the 3PA “does not accumulate”, I mean that it does not move to an out of line condition. It maintains its in line condition as per my quote from Mr Kelley above. Does the 3PA accumulate power? Of course it does, as per Mr Kelley’s mechanical definition of the term; “The process of assuming or acquiring a condition of potential energy”.
Here your confusion stems from equating “accumulating the 3PA”, and “moving the 3PA out of line”. They are not the same. You accumulate the 3PA as you’ve described. You move the 3PA out of line by bending or arching the left wrist, so that the left arm and clubshaft are no longer on the same plane.
So again, when I say the 3PA does not accumulate, I mean it does not move to an out of line condition, not that it does not accumulate power.
“The SE also stated-: "Because the third accumulator’s role is to provide motion to the Secondary Lever Assembly, all rotation is around the axis of the left wrist." That's wrong! There is no such entity as a left wrist axis when it comes to the LAFW. There is only the axis of the intact LAFW which runs down the length of the primary lever assembly, and any rotation of the secondary lever (clubshaft) is due to rotation of the straight left arm in the left shoulder socket when the entire LAFW rotates as an unit.”
Jeff’s lost me slightly here. He says there is “no such entity as a left wrist axis” and yet says the axis of the 3PA “runs down the length of the primary lever assembly”. The left wrist is part of the primary lever assembly. The axis through the straight left arm is the same axis through the left wrist. I believe what Jeff is trying to say is the rotation of the clubshaft isn’t around the left wrist, it’s around the left shoulder, as per his last sentence there.
If Jeff would look to TGM, chapter 6-B-3-0, The Third Power Accumulator, and note pictures 1 and 2 at the bottom of the page. Here they show the 3PA in action, moving the clubhead away from the ball and through the ball. Jeff would see the pictures are labelled “Turned” and “Rolled”. If Jeff then turns to chapter 4 of TGM and read 4-C-2 and 4-C-3, he would see what Mr Kelley means by “turned” and “rolled”. For those of you who don’t have the book, Mr Kelley explains “The wrist is TURNED when the hand is rotated to the right.” and “The wrist is ROLLED when it is rotated to the left”.
So there we have it, the secondary lever assembly is rotated around the axis of the left wrist, not the shoulder as per Jeff’s understanding.
In the next paragraph Jeff again asserts there is no such thing as the left wrist axis, and seemingly, Mr Kelley has got his own work wrong when it comes to the corresponding pressure point for the 3PA.
I don’t have time to dispute the rest of Jeff’s critique properly. The crux of his later arguments seem to stem from how I explain the power accumulators and answer Teeace’s questions as not being true to what happens in an actual real life full golf swing. What I would say to Jeff, as I’d said to Teeace, was I never set out to explain what happens in a “real life full golf swing”. I only meant to explain what the power accumulators are. And I have done so- with references and quotes from Mr Kelley himself.
Jeff’s critique of my 3PA explanation only serves to highlight his own lack of understanding of The Golfing Machine. If he, or anyone for that matter, think’s I’m wrong in interpreting Mr Kelley’s work, then this is how you go about it- You pick up a copy of The Golfing Machine, you find the quotes from Mr Kelley which contradict my explanations, and you tell me about it. If you are right, I will thank you for furthering my own understanding of Mr Kelley’s work, and I will amend my website.
If your argument is “well, it doesn’t happen like that in real life”, then I may agree with you. But that’s a discussion for another time, and with another person.
If your argument is "you're wrong because I say so..." well that doesn't cut it with me. Provide references from TGM itself to prove your point, or don't bother. There's enough misunderstanding of TGM's concepts out there as it is. In my own little way, I'm trying to stop it.
(apologies if this post comes across as confrontational, reading it back to myself it comes across as a little angry! That's not my intent, and I applaud Jeff or anyone who takes an interest in TGM, but it's far too easy to get it wrong... and almost everyone does )
Happy g.o.l.f.ing!
The Swing Engineer
Here’s the link.
newtongolfinstitute.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=golfinstruction&action=display&thread=423
Read the critique in full there, below I’ll respond to a few of his (Jeff’s) points.
“The SE's definition is obviously wrong. He states-: "For a start, it’s an accumulator that doesn’t accumulate. It works by maintaining its “in line” condition.(1) Then he quotes HK -: That “in line” condition, in Mr Kelley’s words, is where “...the entire left arm, the Clubshaft and the back of the left hand are ALWAYS positioned against the same flat plane- the plane of the left wristcock motion.”(2)
If a PA doesn't doesn't accumulate then it cannot contribute to swing power. However, PA#3 works as a PA by accumulating power in the backswing by rotating the entire LAFW clockwise around its longitudinal axis, and it then releases that power by rotating the entire LAFW counterclockwise during the release swivel action that happens between P6.5 and P7.”
I’d ask Jeff to do two things here. Firstly, read the introduction to Power Accumulators I make on the Power Package page of my site. I write;
“So what defines a Power Accumulator? Put simply, they are “out of line” conditions, by which I mean “not in a straight line”. During the above five stage sequence of Accumulation, Loading, Storing, Delivering and Releasing, we will be moving our Power Accumulators to an “out of line” condition (or more accurately, to a more “out of line” condition than they were at address), before releasing their stored power by moving the accumulators back to an “in line” condition.”
Secondly I’d ask Jeff to turn to the glossary of The Golfing Machine and look up “Power Accumulation”. Here Mr Kelley writes “The process of Loading Power Accumulators during their Out-of-Line Configuration”.
So when I write the 3PA “does not accumulate”, I mean that it does not move to an out of line condition. It maintains its in line condition as per my quote from Mr Kelley above. Does the 3PA accumulate power? Of course it does, as per Mr Kelley’s mechanical definition of the term; “The process of assuming or acquiring a condition of potential energy”.
Here your confusion stems from equating “accumulating the 3PA”, and “moving the 3PA out of line”. They are not the same. You accumulate the 3PA as you’ve described. You move the 3PA out of line by bending or arching the left wrist, so that the left arm and clubshaft are no longer on the same plane.
So again, when I say the 3PA does not accumulate, I mean it does not move to an out of line condition, not that it does not accumulate power.
“The SE also stated-: "Because the third accumulator’s role is to provide motion to the Secondary Lever Assembly, all rotation is around the axis of the left wrist." That's wrong! There is no such entity as a left wrist axis when it comes to the LAFW. There is only the axis of the intact LAFW which runs down the length of the primary lever assembly, and any rotation of the secondary lever (clubshaft) is due to rotation of the straight left arm in the left shoulder socket when the entire LAFW rotates as an unit.”
Jeff’s lost me slightly here. He says there is “no such entity as a left wrist axis” and yet says the axis of the 3PA “runs down the length of the primary lever assembly”. The left wrist is part of the primary lever assembly. The axis through the straight left arm is the same axis through the left wrist. I believe what Jeff is trying to say is the rotation of the clubshaft isn’t around the left wrist, it’s around the left shoulder, as per his last sentence there.
If Jeff would look to TGM, chapter 6-B-3-0, The Third Power Accumulator, and note pictures 1 and 2 at the bottom of the page. Here they show the 3PA in action, moving the clubhead away from the ball and through the ball. Jeff would see the pictures are labelled “Turned” and “Rolled”. If Jeff then turns to chapter 4 of TGM and read 4-C-2 and 4-C-3, he would see what Mr Kelley means by “turned” and “rolled”. For those of you who don’t have the book, Mr Kelley explains “The wrist is TURNED when the hand is rotated to the right.” and “The wrist is ROLLED when it is rotated to the left”.
So there we have it, the secondary lever assembly is rotated around the axis of the left wrist, not the shoulder as per Jeff’s understanding.
In the next paragraph Jeff again asserts there is no such thing as the left wrist axis, and seemingly, Mr Kelley has got his own work wrong when it comes to the corresponding pressure point for the 3PA.
I don’t have time to dispute the rest of Jeff’s critique properly. The crux of his later arguments seem to stem from how I explain the power accumulators and answer Teeace’s questions as not being true to what happens in an actual real life full golf swing. What I would say to Jeff, as I’d said to Teeace, was I never set out to explain what happens in a “real life full golf swing”. I only meant to explain what the power accumulators are. And I have done so- with references and quotes from Mr Kelley himself.
Jeff’s critique of my 3PA explanation only serves to highlight his own lack of understanding of The Golfing Machine. If he, or anyone for that matter, think’s I’m wrong in interpreting Mr Kelley’s work, then this is how you go about it- You pick up a copy of The Golfing Machine, you find the quotes from Mr Kelley which contradict my explanations, and you tell me about it. If you are right, I will thank you for furthering my own understanding of Mr Kelley’s work, and I will amend my website.
If your argument is “well, it doesn’t happen like that in real life”, then I may agree with you. But that’s a discussion for another time, and with another person.
If your argument is "you're wrong because I say so..." well that doesn't cut it with me. Provide references from TGM itself to prove your point, or don't bother. There's enough misunderstanding of TGM's concepts out there as it is. In my own little way, I'm trying to stop it.
(apologies if this post comes across as confrontational, reading it back to myself it comes across as a little angry! That's not my intent, and I applaud Jeff or anyone who takes an interest in TGM, but it's far too easy to get it wrong... and almost everyone does )
Happy g.o.l.f.ing!
The Swing Engineer