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Post by theswingengineer on Feb 13, 2013 13:13:10 GMT -5
Just saw the Medicus Purestrike 5 Simple Keys' video on Richie's blog regarding the weight shift during the swing. www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aDxac2kYe1QEver since the "Stack & Tilt" methodology had come about I'd been harping on about their impossible weight shifting (or lack of) during the backswing. In Mr Bennet & Plummer's book they advise the student to start with around 55% weight on the leading leg at address, and keep it that way until the top of the swing. On page 67 under the "Backswing in Sequence" heading, they state; "... and your weight is still 55/45 (at the top) because your hips and shoulders are turning in a circle, not shifting off the ball." It's nice to see the SwingCatalyst contraption show even with a Stack & Tilt swing that doesn't happen and the weight does indeed move to the rear foot. The gentleman in the video (Dave Wedzik, if I'm not mistaken?) states the shift in weight is due to his straightening right leg, and not, as implied, because the head, shoulders or hips are sliding away from the ball. Well I think he's wrong on his reasoning for the increased weight / pressure on his right foot. Allow me to explain... The weight of your arms and the club you're holding begins at the centre of your stance (or there abouts) at address. During the backswing this weight moves away from the target outside of your stance, irrespective of your stationary shoulders and hips. Your arms and clubshaft are more than heavy enough to affect the weight distribution between your feet. Simply put, if you move your arms away from the target, you are moving the weight of your arms away from the target also. This will prevent you from maintaining the majority of your weight on your leading leg, unless you compensate by moving your hips towards the target as a counterweight to your arms. So even if Mr Wedzik hadn't straightened his right leg on the backswing, the pressure / weight on his right foot would have still increased- even when stopping the head / shoulders / hips from moving away from the target. Here's an rough illustration of Mr Bennet's arm and club weight during his backswing. Happy g.o.l.f.ing! Attachments:
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Post by mchepp on Feb 13, 2013 13:49:43 GMT -5
Hi Swing Engineer,
The 5SK guys really wanted to say "pressure" instead of weight, but were worried most folks wouldn't know what pressure meant so they went with weight. Second, the S&T is a swing that can fit into 5SK but the systems are not the same. That being said, most people who try out the S&T swing make the mistake you mention of allowing the head to go forward in an effort to keep the pressure left. The 5SK's team feels this is one of the concerns they have in the S&T system.
Now the point about the arms and the clubhead and how they affect weight and/or pressure is beyond my knowledge base and hopefully a 5SK guys will answer your point regarding that.
If you really want a good debate on this I suggest you post this discussion over at Erik's site, thesandtrap.com. Mike or Erik will discuss with you pretty quickly. I know they come here often but they are both pretty busy guys and likely only check once in a while.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 13, 2013 13:55:16 GMT -5
Yes, I feel the 5SK and S&T share some of the same elements, but not all.
I know talking to Erik they have no problem using pitch or punch elbow, CP or CF release. S&T is really pitch elbow with a CF release. Then they adjust their stance in order to hit the shot they want.
3JACK
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Post by theswingengineer on Feb 13, 2013 15:11:48 GMT -5
Hi Swing Engineer, The 5SK guys really wanted to say "pressure" instead of weight, but were worried most folks wouldn't know what pressure meant so they went with weight. Second, the S&T is a swing that can fit into 5SK but the systems are not the same. That being said, most people who try out the S&T swing make the mistake you mention of allowing the head to go forward in an effort to keep the pressure left. The 5SK's team feels this is one of the concerns they have in the S&T system. Now the point about the arms and the clubhead and how they affect weight and/or pressure is beyond my knowledge base and hopefully a 5SK guys will answer your point regarding that. If you really want a good debate on this I suggest you post this discussion over at Erik's site, thesandtrap.com. Mike or Erik will discuss with you pretty quickly. I know they come here often but they are both pretty busy guys and likely only check once in a while. Hey Mchepp, how's it going? I'd taken the terms weight and pressure to be synonymous in this case. Perhaps mistakenly? Weight of course is gravity's pull on your mass. Where your mass is affects the pressure between your feet and the ground. If you move some of your mass (your arms and club) away from the target, then you've moved your centre of gravity away from the target and will increase the pressure between the rear foot and the ground. Having the rear leg remain bent or straightening it doesn't change that. Aside from simply moving your mass around, you could increase the pressure between the your feet and the ground by using your muscles to "push" against the ground. If you were to squat down on a set of weighing scales and then jump vertically upwards, the scales would appear to show your weight had increased momentarily. This extra weight would be the pressure created by your leg muscles creating force to lift you off the ground. I'm not sure if that's what the 5 Keys gents were getting at, but even if it was, moving your arms away from the target on the backswing will invariably move your weight, and increase the pressure, on your rear foot. As for the S&T / 5 Keys swings, I was going to write a disclaimer to say I know the 5 Keys gents don't teach the S&T swing per se.... but comparing what I can see of Mr Wedzik's swing and Mr Bennet's, there isn't a whole lot of difference there. From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Mr Wedzik had worked with Mr Bennet and it's from him he learnt how to swing in that particular fashion. But we could split hairs all day on that issue- it's just my opinion Mr Wedzik has a S&T swing.
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Post by theswingengineer on Feb 13, 2013 15:17:16 GMT -5
Yes, I feel the 5SK and S&T share some of the same elements, but not all. I know talking to Erik they have no problem using pitch or punch elbow, CP or CF release. S&T is really pitch elbow with a CF release. Then they adjust their stance in order to hit the shot they want. 3JACK Evening Richie! How are you defining a Pitch Elbow? Mr Bennet looks pretty "down-and-at-the-side" to me here. Attachments:
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 13, 2013 15:22:23 GMT -5
My error, I meant to say punch.
3JACK
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Post by theswingengineer on Feb 13, 2013 15:29:41 GMT -5
My error, I meant to say punch. 3JACK Good man
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Post by mchepp on Feb 13, 2013 19:47:55 GMT -5
Erik did this really good video on weight shift versus pressure a while ago.
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Post by theswingengineer on Feb 14, 2013 12:47:44 GMT -5
Hey Mechepp,
I like how he starts off with the same example I'd given of jumping on a set of scales. I'd obviously agree, weight and pressure aren't the same thing. Weight being Earth's gravitational pull on your mass, and pressure being force divided by the area it's applied to.
The video highlights the same issue I had with the S&T weight distribution teaching, namely they ignore the weight of your arms and the club in the backswing. At around the 3:10 mark onwards, the gentleman shows the body hasn't moved away from the target on the backswing. The line drawn from the centre of the head downwards still shows half the body on one side and half the body on the other. Because of this he says the weight distribution is 50/50. But he's completely ignored the fact that both arms and the club have moved to the left side of the green line. This means the weight of both arms and the club are on that side and so the weight can't be 50/50- there is more mass on the left side than the right. (For simplicity sake I've ignored the momentum of the moving arms on the backswing, which would also affect the 50/50 ratio).
Anyway, happy Valentine's day to you all- I hope you haven't been burdened with too many letters from secret admirers!
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 14, 2013 13:32:04 GMT -5
Yea I think the termanology of the video is what is a bit misleading.
I agree with the OP that there is no way the weight can be forward once the arms and club start to swing back, at least not in a normal swing.
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joec
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 161
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Post by joec on Feb 14, 2013 14:00:08 GMT -5
to me this comes down to intention. did he intentially move his weight to the right, or was the weight moved to the right unintentionally by the weighht of the arms, club, etc. big difference!
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Post by cloran on Feb 14, 2013 22:16:46 GMT -5
S&T 2.0 dvds use force plates and show a definite leftward increase in pressure from P1 to P4 and maxing out at the finish.
How does pressure feel to your feet? Does it feel like "weight"... I'd say so.
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Post by teeace on Feb 15, 2013 4:22:02 GMT -5
When people ask me about weight shift, I always put a ball to their trail hand and ask them to throw it as far as possible. All the time questions of the still head and weight shift ends right away.
Everyone who has made some other sports got these natural movement and I just keep wondering why so many tries to create new kind of wheel in golf. Hit something or throw something... it's always natural move and should not be changed when we got golf club in our hands
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Post by cloran on Feb 15, 2013 9:02:40 GMT -5
When people ask me about weight shift, I always put a ball to their trail hand and ask them to throw it as far as possible. All the time questions of the still head and weight shift ends right away. Everyone who has made some other sports got these natural movement and I just keep wondering why so many tries to create new kind of wheel in golf. Hit something or throw something... it's always natural move and should not be changed when we got golf club in our hands ... Because many people can't hit/throw something.
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rok78
Apex II's
Posts: 59
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Post by rok78 on Feb 15, 2013 11:30:18 GMT -5
^ +1,000 to that cloran. Most people do not have efficient throwing motions so to say it's "natural" isn't correct. Maybe natural in a 30 handicap way, lol.
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