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Post by theswingengineer on Jun 27, 2013 12:05:19 GMT -5
Hey folks, how's this year's golfing season treating you so far?
Apologies for my absence, as the weather improves I tend to get busier and don't have so much time for writing. Speaking of which, I've just finished a new chapter for my website. Before I publish it, I'd like to ask you a question. What do you know of the Aiming Point? And more specifically, where is it?
Tell me below!
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jun 27, 2013 12:15:15 GMT -5
Good to have you back.
From my perspective the aiming point concept in TGM is the spot where the golfer aims the thrust of the hands on the downswing, near impact. The location is somewhere between the ball and the target on the baseline in order to help promote a downward and outward motion of the club thru impact.
3JACK
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Post by theswingengineer on Jun 28, 2013 11:58:34 GMT -5
It's good to be back Richie! How are you holding up? The location is somewhere between the ball and the target on the baseline That's the answer I was looking for because everyone says it... and it's wrong. The Aiming Point should be behind the ball on full swings. Learn why in the below link. As always, fully referenced, with diagrams and this time animations. www.theswingengineer.com/Aiming_Point.htmlAs if that isn't enough, I've already answered your next question. www.theswingengineer.com/FAQ_3.htmlHappy G.O.L.F.ing folks! |
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jun 28, 2013 14:42:31 GMT -5
Is it wrong because Homer Kelley was wrong or am I misinterpreting Kelley's work?
I agree that the low point of the hand path is a good ways behind the ball. Therefore the Aiming Point Concept has its fault (it's still a feel and often times the feel isn't real). But that's what I interpreted Homer Kelley stating in TGM, that the thrust should be directed forward.
This is part of what started the entire beef with myself and Manzella and Co. Mike Jacobs made the video called 'The New Release' which espoused the Aiming Point Concept because it wants the thrust directed up the target line in front of the ball and their research showed the hands low point was behind the ball. I stated that I knew that already from my work with George Hunt and John Dochety and that Mac.O.Grady discovered stuff like that years and years ago. Mike Finney and Co. were flabbergasted that a lot of their research in 'the new release' was discovered long ago and couldn't handle it, so I gave them the golden boot, so to say.
3JACK
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Post by theswingengineer on Jun 29, 2013 6:36:07 GMT -5
You’ve misread Mr Kelley, Richie. He never says the thrust should be directed forwards. Have a look at 2-N-1 “Force Vectors”. The first sentence states “Actually, the Forward Force Vector of the Clubhead is a resultant force; that is, it is the product of two divergent and synchronous forces - one outward and one downward.”
You shouldn’t worry about the “forward-ness” of impact, concentrate on the downward and outward, and the forward will take care of itself.
The Aiming Point is directing the clubhead lag pressure point felt in your hand towards the ground. The hands are responsible for the downward element of the downswing as per 2-N-1 “The Primary Downward Force Vector is produced by the straightening Right Elbow...”
In 6-E the subheading is “Thrust Direction”. 6-E-2 “The Aiming Point Concept” Mr Kelley writes “...direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward... to ensure the “Downward” element of Three Dimensional Impact. That is: TRY TO DRIVE THE BALL INTO THE GROUND, NOT INTO THE AIR.”
Anyone who claims the Aiming Point is directing force forwards is wrong, it’s directing it downwards!
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Post by kevcarter on Jun 29, 2013 18:15:15 GMT -5
Good to see you again TSE. Fascinating discussion. I have a nothing but respect for your work.
I have to say I was lucky enough to spend a couple of hours with Mr. Clampett listening and watching. I would have a very tough time saying he is wrong, but do understand there is a HUGE difference between fact and feel. I don't think I've ever seen or heard better impact than his, ball after ball after ball... :-)
Thank you for sharing!
Kevin
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Post by teeace on Jun 30, 2013 3:00:31 GMT -5
You’ve misread Mr Kelley, Richie. He never says the thrust should be directed forwards. Have a look at 2-N-1 “Force Vectors”. The first sentence states “Actually, the Forward Force Vector of the Clubhead is a resultant force; that is, it is the product of two divergent and synchronous forces - one outward and one downward.” You shouldn’t worry about the “forward-ness” of impact, concentrate on the downward and outward, and the forward will take care of itself. The Aiming Point is directing the clubhead lag pressure point felt in your hand towards the ground. The hands are responsible for the downward element of the downswing as per 2-N-1 “ The Primary Downward Force Vector is produced by the straightening Right Elbow...”In 6-E the subheading is “Thrust Direction”. 6-E-2 “The Aiming Point Concept” Mr Kelley writes “...direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward... to ensure the “Downward” element of Three Dimensional Impact. That is: TRY TO DRIVE THE BALL INTO THE GROUND, NOT INTO THE AIR.” Anyone who claims the Aiming Point is directing force forwards is wrong, it’s directing it downwards! How about those players who go through the impact with bent right elbow and bent right wrist? I have to say I tried many many years hit the ball down and made big mistakes also in teaching by that idea. Nowadays I put zero force downwards to the club. Zero. |
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Post by theswingengineer on Jun 30, 2013 6:07:18 GMT -5
Good to see you again TSE. Fascinating discussion. I have a nothing but respect for your work. I have to say I was lucky enough to spend a couple of hours with Mr. Clampett listening and watching. I would have a very tough time saying he is wrong, but do understand there is a HUGE difference between fact and feel. I don't think I've ever seen or heard better impact than his, ball after ball after ball... :-) Thank you for sharing! Kevin Thank you for the kind words, Kevin. Of course Mr Clampett can really hit a ball, he’s a touring pro after all! Is his idea of looking at the Low Point and aiming to get the hands in front of the ball at impact wrong? Not at all, it works for him and I’m sure it can work for many others. I say he’s wrong when he calls that technique the Aiming Point, because it’s not. As I say in the introduction to my website, don’t take my word for it. I provide plenty of references and I’d like you to read The Golfing Machine for yourself and make up your own mind! |
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Post by theswingengineer on Jun 30, 2013 6:09:03 GMT -5
You’ve misread Mr Kelley, Richie. He never says the thrust should be directed forwards. Have a look at 2-N-1 “Force Vectors”. The first sentence states “Actually, the Forward Force Vector of the Clubhead is a resultant force; that is, it is the product of two divergent and synchronous forces - one outward and one downward.” You shouldn’t worry about the “forward-ness” of impact, concentrate on the downward and outward, and the forward will take care of itself. The Aiming Point is directing the clubhead lag pressure point felt in your hand towards the ground. The hands are responsible for the downward element of the downswing as per 2-N-1 “ The Primary Downward Force Vector is produced by the straightening Right Elbow...”In 6-E the subheading is “Thrust Direction”. 6-E-2 “The Aiming Point Concept” Mr Kelley writes “...direct the #3 Pressure Point strongly downward... to ensure the “Downward” element of Three Dimensional Impact. That is: TRY TO DRIVE THE BALL INTO THE GROUND, NOT INTO THE AIR.” Anyone who claims the Aiming Point is directing force forwards is wrong, it’s directing it downwards! How about those players who go through the impact with bent right elbow and bent right wrist? I have to say I tried many many years hit the ball down and made big mistakes also in teaching by that idea. Nowadays I put zero force downwards to the club. Zero. Hi Teeace. Who said anything about going through impact with a straight right arm and flat right wrist? Read that highlighted quote again- it doesn’t say what you think it did. So if you provide zero downward force on the downswing, how do your hands get from head height-ish at the top to down by your groin at impact? |
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Post by teeace on Jun 30, 2013 13:47:50 GMT -5
How about those players who go through the impact with bent right elbow and bent right wrist? I have to say I tried many many years hit the ball down and made big mistakes also in teaching by that idea. Nowadays I put zero force downwards to the club. Zero. Hi Teeace. Who said anything about going through impact with a straight right arm and flat right wrist? Read that highlighted quote again- it doesn’t say what you think it did. So if you provide zero downward force on the downswing, how do your hands get from head height-ish at the top to down by your groin at impact? I have to disagree just that bolded text. HK maybe thought it's straightening right elbow, but I don't agree with him. Hands are getting down in DSW, as well they go up in BSW just with shoulder rotation. There is no independent action of arms and right shoulder drop brings them low enough without any straightening of the right elbow. The other question is how that primary down force can be created like that, as we know hands are already rising after they reach right thigh? So there is no downward force in butt end of the club, only at the club head. |
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Post by theswingengineer on Jun 30, 2013 15:35:19 GMT -5
I have to disagree just that bolded text. HK maybe thought it's straightening right elbow, but I don't agree with him. Hands are getting down in DSW, as well they go up in BSW just with shoulder rotation. There is no independent action of arms and right shoulder drop brings them low enough without any straightening of the right elbow. The other question is how that primary down force can be created like that, as we know hands are already rising after they reach right thigh? So there is no downward force in butt end of the club, only at the club head. This thread was to discuss the Aiming Point, not what causes the downward force during the golf swing. Because of that I didn't quote Mr Kelley fully in that bold text you highlighted, hence the "..." after it. If you have a copy of The Golfing Machine you'd be able to see that quote in its entirety. Give it a read and then see if you still disagree with Mr Kelley  (For those of you who don't have the book, this is what he says in 2-N-1, " The Primary Downward Force Vector is produced by straightening the Right Elbow - including the Uncocking of the Left Wrist. Otherwise, just dropping, pulling, or pushing the Lever Assemblies Downward from their fulcrum (6-A) will suffice as the Downward Force Vector.") |
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