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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jul 10, 2013 12:23:24 GMT -5
Richie -
What about a driving iron at 18* over a 15* three wood?
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Post by rj on Jul 10, 2013 13:17:21 GMT -5
I could see the 3-wood being used less in practice. A recent client I picked up told me that he couldn't remember the last time he practiced with any of his clubs from the 3-wood to the 5-iron. And he's a multi-time winner on Tour. Although he told me that he just hasn't liked his 3-wood since 2010. And he tends to practice 3-woods off the tee if he has some tough holes that he feels he'll need to hit it off the tee. But, I think the design of the 3-wood...with it being the 2nd longest club in the bag, not only in shaft length, but in distance off the tee; along with manufacturers having struggled with the 3-wood design ever since going to titanium heads in the driver, has presented some major issues for golfers. With persimmon, the size of a driver versus a 3-wood was not nearly as different. When OEM's first tried titanium in 3-woods, they were too big and had issues hitting them off the deck. Then they went to high strength steels and they have caused a myriad of issues as well. Either the head designs are more geared towards hitting off the deck and being woefully inept off the tee or whatever. I also think that OEM's haven't really gotten down the science behind finding the best fit for a 3-wood shaft. They focus mostly on the driver and the irons instead. 3JACK I guess Freddy Couples found the perfect 3 wood, the one he "stole" from Tom Watson's wife must have had magical powers in it as he could pound it and hit the fairways a lot with it. Maybe the OEM's should ask Fred for it so they could see why that 3wood is so good..... or maybe it was Fred that was so good....hmmmm?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jul 10, 2013 14:03:21 GMT -5
I don't have data as far 3-wood versus driving iron, etc. When I use Shot Tracker to determine driver versus 3-wood, I can set a baseline comparing a player's average distance for the year and how far they hit that drive. One of the holes I examined is #18 at Bay Hill.
When I see guys like Stewart Cink or Daniel Summerhays hit a 300 yard tee shot, it's fairly safe to assume that they are hitting driver on that hole. When I see Gary Woodland hit a 250 yard tee shot on the same exact hole, we know that he laid up.
Woodland uses a 2-iron a lot, so I assume that with a 250 yard tee shot he hit the 2-iron. If it went about 280 yards, then he likely hit the 3-wood. When I went to Bay Hill this year, Cink and Summerhays were using a driver and Woodland was using a 2-iron. The same when I went to Sawgrass and looked at the 4th hole there. You can establish a baseline and figure out if the player used a driver or left it in the bag.
So there's no real data between 3-wood and say a 18* driving iron. But there's good data to be seen that can differentiate a driver versus not using a driver off the tee. On the holes I picked, outside of somebody like Woodland who likes to use his 2-iron, they pretty much either hit driver or 3-wood off the tee. If they are using hybrids or driving irons off the tee, then it's likely that nobody is hitting driver on that hole, ala #9 at Harbour Town.
3JACK
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jul 10, 2013 14:10:55 GMT -5
I guess Freddy Couples found the perfect 3 wood, the one he "stole" from Tom Watson's wife must have had magical powers in it as he could pound it and hit the fairways a lot with it. Maybe the OEM's should ask Fred for it so they could see why that 3wood is so good..... or maybe it was Fred that was so good....hmmmm? First, I would have to quantify Freddie's ability with the 3-wood before we could make any conclusions. One of the things I've written about is how many myths there are in golf based on anecdotal evidence. For years I was told that Billy Mayfair was a 'good putter.' I'm not sure what that was based on other than he had a funny putting stroke and stayed on Tours all of these years. The reality is he was a poor putter and a very good ballstriker. His unorthodox putting mechanics were to his detriment. And for years I heard that David Toms was a short game wizard, but not much in the way of ballstriking. While Toms is often very good on and around the greens, he's been a masterful ballstriker his entire career. Secondly, there may be reasons why Couples hits the 3-wood well. I know Mickelson has hit the Phrankenwood terribly since getting it. But, at the US Open he employed two 3-woods and hit his 'driving' 3-wood quite well. Why? His driving 3-wood had more loft than the Phrankenwood (12* versus 8.5) and was at a much shorter shaft length (IIRC, 43-1/4" long). He wasn't exactly Boo Weekley off the tee at Merion, but it was a large improvement from driving it awful. Then again, eating tofu is a large improvement over licking a urinal cake. But the same may be for Freddie. He may hit the 3-wood well because it's better than him hitting his driver. Then we have had D.A. Points who has dramatically improved his putting since taking his mother's putter. Sometimes certain guys luck out. 3JACK
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Post by rj on Jul 10, 2013 15:21:22 GMT -5
Well that's the point I was making, there are reasons why someone like Fred C. can take a " 3wood" which was actually a ladies driver and change the shaft in it and hit it great. The OEM'S should find out the why since they can't seem to produce a good 3wood for tour pro's. Maybe they should just make them like Ladies drivers put a 3 on them and call them 3 woods. I wonder who made the one Couples used? Yeah I guess he was just "lucky" or maybe he's just real good. I doubt you would have to quantify Fred's ability with a "3wood" I mean ladies driver/3wood, he's already done that. 95% of the game is in your head and the other 5% is mental.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jul 10, 2013 15:42:14 GMT -5
I think a big part of it is the shaft. The general consensus with 3-wood shafts is to take your driver shaft model and get the heavier model. But, it doesn't tell us about how heavy should it be as well as the possible differences in bend profile.
But to me, I think it's mostly an issue with getting the right amount of heft and balance of the club right. I think OEM's have really missed out on that with the 3-woods.
3JACK
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Post by rj on Jul 10, 2013 15:47:14 GMT -5
I think a big part of it is the shaft. The general consensus with 3-wood shafts is to take your driver shaft model and get the heavier model. But, it doesn't tell us about how heavy should it be as well as the possible differences in bend profile. But to me, I think it's mostly an issue with getting the right amount of heft and balance of the club right. I think OEM's have really missed out on that with the 3-woods. 3JACK Have you asked Wishon about this, do you know what his take on it is....would be interesting to read what his idea's are on it.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jul 10, 2013 19:06:24 GMT -5
I have yet to ask Tom about this. But there is something I plan on doing. Again, it all ties into 2013 PGS.
3JACK
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Post by golfbaka on Jul 12, 2013 4:19:32 GMT -5
I have yet to ask Tom about this. But there is something I plan on doing. Again, it all ties into 2013 PGS. 3JACK when do you think the 2013 PGS will be done? thanks
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jul 12, 2013 7:46:40 GMT -5
I'm thinking November since the season ends sooner this year.
3JACK
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