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Post by cloran on Aug 30, 2013 11:08:33 GMT -5
Challenge:
"Just show me where Kelvin says "the wrists are drive/holding".
-Jeffy
"The left wrist remains solid or moves toward a more solid position while the body provides the rotational force through the impact area."
-KM
Perhaps this is where some of the wiggle room for KM's definitions rest. KM says the left wrist holds (I mean... "remains solid") and the body drives, not that the wrists drive and hold simultaneously... regardless, to say that KM's definitions aren't based only on the LOOK of what the wrists APPEAR to be doing is undeniably false.
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Post by jeffy on Aug 30, 2013 12:11:24 GMT -5
And?
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Post by jeffy on Aug 30, 2013 12:28:31 GMT -5
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 30, 2013 12:47:46 GMT -5
And when the qualitative analysis conflicts with the quantative analysis Jeffy what does one do?
Keep calling a movement drive/holding even though the wrists aren't driving or holding (they're holding onto the club, I'll give you that)? Seems like a classification error.
The biomechanists don't need an introductory book on biomechanics! Qualitative might be first, but it certainly isn't the last way to study movement. Of course, if quantitative data exists of elite golfers it should be ignored if it conflicts with qualitative findings!
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 30, 2013 13:01:35 GMT -5
When is Lucas Wald going to stop by Dr. Kwon's lab? Great opportunity for Kelvin's best student to change the world? Or are you going to make excuses for why he won't go? If cost is an issue that can be resolved. A great opportunity awaits.
Of course, maybe you don't want him to go and would rather just post qualitative analysis without ever having it subjected to quantitative analysis. Dr. Kwon isn't even a big believer of standard kinematic sequence theory! Lucas isn't that far from him.
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Post by jeffy on Aug 30, 2013 13:01:54 GMT -5
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Post by jeffy on Aug 30, 2013 13:04:05 GMT -5
When is Lucas Wald going to stop by Dr. Kwon's lab? Great opportunity for Kelvin's best student to change the world? Or are you going to make excuses for why he won't go? If cost is an issue that can be resolved. A great opportunity awaits. No need for Lucas to go to Kwon's lab; all the data they need exists in current data bases. Same thread, start at post #12. jeffygolf.com/showthread.php?769-Scientific-Bias |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 30, 2013 13:04:43 GMT -5
So AMM graphs of Gary Woodland's wrists aren't sufficient as quantitive data?
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 30, 2013 13:06:13 GMT -5
When is Lucas Wald going to stop by Dr. Kwon's lab? Great opportunity for Kelvin's best student to change the world? Or are you going to make excuses for why he won't go? If cost is an issue that can be resolved. A great opportunity awaits. No need for Lucas to go to Kwon's lab; all the data they need exists in current data bases. Same thread, start at post #12. jeffygolf.com/forumdisplay.php?24-Golf-Biomechanics-Science-or-Pseudo-ScienceComplete cop out! Is Lucas not elite enough for you? The only database of "elite" players 3D info is at TPI/AMM. Why you keep using 2D for something it wasn't designed to do (ex. give you angular velocity) is beyond ridiculous. You keep making your own little world so that you can't be wrong. Only progressives in politics act this way. Put up or shut up Jeffy. You have the chance to prove everyone wrong and now you want take the chance? Let me guess, unless you control the research it will never be correct! |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 30, 2013 13:09:15 GMT -5
Jeffy -
Just admit that your camp doesn't want a quantitative analysis to occur! Lucas/Kelvin/you are squandering a great opportunity and it demonstrates that you only want to exist in your own 2D world.
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Post by jeffy on Aug 30, 2013 13:10:16 GMT -5
No, his wrist data is just a small part; there are 15 elements and not all are reflected in the AMM wrist graphs; also, many players need to be analyzed to evaluate the differences.
Here is the process that Prof. Duffey said was "certainly more than less" correct:
1. An expert in qualitative analysis, Kelvin, identifies anatomical movements common to elite ballstrikers.
2. He concludes, as you did, that the combination of left shoulder internal rotation through impact plus early left forearm supination will produce a more stable release: one where there is a slower rate of closure through impact.
3. He tests his hypothesis with a student who successfully makes the recommended movement changes and experiences improved ball striking. Up to this point, the process has relied solely on high-speed video and the coach's knowledge of anatomy and the golf swing.
4. The instructor/qualitative analyst presents these findings to a golf biomechanist. Not being an expert in golf instruction or elite golf swings, this is a novel concept to the biomechanist. It piques his interest.
5. Using the information provided by the instructor/qualitative analyst, the golf biomechanist determines what segments to study and what motions to analyze.
6. To determine "baseline" information, he goes to his data base of existing swings (a couple thousand) to quantify the motions of interest (e.g. lead humerus rotation, lead forearm rotation, etc.).
7. With the baseline information established, the biomechanist can quantify the differences among players and, perhaps working with the instructor/qualitative analyst, group players into categories based on similar combinations of movements (e.g., drive/holder, roller, etc.).
8. He can also seek out specific players to measure, such as the student of interest, or obtain existing data on the elite players the instructor/qualitative analyst used as models.
9. From this, a quantitative model of the different release styles can be developed.
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Post by jeffy on Aug 30, 2013 13:12:48 GMT -5
The quantitative data to do the analysis already exists; you have some in your possession. Kwon, et al can do it without Lucas. When it is done, maybe he'll come down and be tested to see how he stacks up against the elites.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 30, 2013 13:14:01 GMT -5
Is Lucas elite or not?
Only AMM/TPI have your "elite" players.
There are over 200 graphs of Gary from one swing! Kelvin didn't understand AMM and I doubt you do as well. Kelvin thought AMM was like K-vest which was his ONLY experience in 3D (even though K-Vest is 3 degrees, not 6 like AMM).
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Aug 30, 2013 13:15:13 GMT -5
Complete cop out Jeffy. You should be embarassed. You have a chance for Kelvin's shining star to prove Manzella wrong and you won't do it. That speaks volumes and the rest on this site know it. Lucas isn't that far away from KWON.
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Post by jeffy on Aug 30, 2013 13:16:04 GMT -5
Complete cop out! Is Lucas not elite enough for you? The only database of "elite" players 3D info is at TPI/AMM. Why you keep using 2D for something it wasn't designed to do (ex. give you angular velocity) is beyond ridiculous. You keep making your own little world so that you can't be wrong. Only progressives in politics act this way. Put up or shut up Jeffy. You have the chance to prove everyone wrong and now you want take the chance? Let me guess, unless you control the research it will never be correct!Duffey and I agree "certainly more than less" on how the research should be done. Tell your scientists to get on with it. |
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