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Post by jeffy on Jan 7, 2014 21:32:02 GMT -5
Define it any way you want, but "casting" is initiated by internal rotation of the right shoulder; UD and, typically, right wrist flexion, and "flipping", follows. Players that also pronate the right arm are flip/rollers. Internal rotation of the right shoulder means counter-clockwise rotation of the right humeris. You really don't know that? A lot of good hanging out with Bman and the "scientists" have done for your anatomical knowledge. Don't really care so long as it doesn't begin until after impact: some pronate quickly, others later. |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 7, 2014 21:46:29 GMT -5
Jeffy -
When do you think rollers are pronating their right forearm? P6? P6.5?
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Post by jeffy on Jan 7, 2014 21:52:35 GMT -5
Jeffy - When do you think rollers are pronating their right forearm? P6? P6.5?If they aren't pronating the right forearm pre-impact, why would it matter? |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 7, 2014 22:07:38 GMT -5
You assert that elite players pronate their right forearm after impact. Thus, I presume that "rollers" must pronate their right forearm pre-impact. I'm not looking for the why, but the when. When do rollers generally pronate their right forearm? I'm not looking for the exact time as a standard for all, just an approximation.
Obviously you seem to think it matters or else you wouldn't comment on when holders pronate their right forearm.
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Post by jeffy on Jan 8, 2014 0:05:23 GMT -5
You assert that elite players pronate their right forearm after impact. Thus, I presume that "rollers" must pronate their right forearm pre-impact. I'm not looking for the why, but the when. When do rollers generally pronate their right forearm? I'm not looking for the exact time as a standard for all, just an approximation. Obviously you seem to think it matters or else you wouldn't comment on when holders pronate their right forearm. Jesus, if after all this time discussing different release styles, going back to 2010, you still don't understand them enough to answer these most basic and obvious questions, I give up. You clearly have no genuine interest in understanding this topic. |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 8, 2014 0:15:00 GMT -5
Jeffy -
If you don't want to answer then just say you don't want to answer. It's a simple answer in time when a roller is starting to pronate their right forearm. P6? P6.5? P7?
Why wouldn't I consult with you since you must know these styles inside and out since 2010???
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Post by teeace on Jan 8, 2014 1:56:39 GMT -5
Good players have much faster left forearm supination than the speed of their right forearm pronation. ' WHATTTTT!!!!!! Do you mean they loose their grip?? Sorry to be myself again, but that's about impossible physically and if some data shows that, definitions or calibration is wrong. |
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Post by teeace on Jan 8, 2014 2:10:11 GMT -5
Why do you believe you need to see the internal/external rotation of the humerus for good forearm sup/pro data? They are two separate movements that both influence clubface rotation, and the movements are quite different for elite players v. everyone else. Knowing just one is meaningless. It's like knowing supination/pronation but not grip strength. Insane question. How can one see supination or pronation without knowing humerus orientation?? No way gentlemen. Sup and pron are change of forearm orientation relative to the upper arm and humerus. Not a direction of movement. And there is even more to understand when measuring that and to really understand how things are measured. The way to measure that is to put 3 sensors to the arm. One about in humerus, one at the forearm and one at the back of the hand. Now what computer can read is only location of those points and how well they are in line with each other. The problem is that computer can't know how and why they are not in line or why they are. i.e. sensors at hand and forearm are not in line if you bow your wrist or if you rotate your forearm. I think I've said this 1000 times, but that's why it's about impossible to really measure if its supination or combination of UD + PF |
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Post by teeace on Jan 8, 2014 3:48:05 GMT -5
And this debate is also missing one really relevant point. The forearms can get supinated and pronated even the players action is just opposite.
It's very much possible that no one pronates his right forearm but just let it happen and those "holders" just don't release it. 80% of actions are hidden from our eyes as those forces in the club are pulling our arms to some direction and that happens with change of direction and speed.
This is what I've been telling for years and seems few people just can't understand it. Players muscular action is left forearm pronation, so he uses his muscles to turn left forearm to CW direction. As the club is heavy and hands change their direction and decelerate, the inertia of the club turns that arm to opposite direction and depending of amounts of those opposite forces the visible movement is holding or supination.
If that would be understood first, real conversation can start and if we understand players intention, we can see what else he does i.e. keeps the trail elbow in to generate more force against that inertia at the club.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 8, 2014 8:39:33 GMT -5
Good players have much faster left forearm supination than the speed of their right forearm pronation. ' WHATTTTT!!!!!! Do you mean they loose their grip?? Sorry to be myself again, but that's about impossible physically and if some data shows that, definitions or calibration is wrong. The AMM data for tour pros vs amateurs show a distinct speed difference between left forearm vs right forearm sup/pro between P6.5 to P7.5. It's not impossible because you can indepently pronate and supinate your forearms while your hands are on the shaft without losing your grip (although some pros actually lose their right hand grip at times). The more your elbow is bent the less the movement of the humerus affects forearm rotation. If your arms were perfectly straight (which they aren't until well past impact - if at all in some) then the action of the humerus would play a bigger role in axial rotation of the shaft. It's still a secondary influence of the axial rotation of the shaft compared to your forearms. |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 8, 2014 8:41:20 GMT -5
And this debate is also missing one really relevant point. The forearms can get supinated and pronated even the players action is just opposite. It's very much possible that no one pronates his right forearm but just let it happen and those "holders" just don't release it. 80% of actions are hidden from our eyes as those forces in the club are pulling our arms to some direction and that happens with change of direction and speed. This is what I've been telling for years and seems few people just can't understand it. Players muscular action is left forearm pronation, so he uses his muscles to turn left forearm to CW direction. As the club is heavy and hands change their direction and decelerate, the inertia of the club turns that arm to opposite direction and depending of amounts of those opposite forces the visible movement is holding or supination. If that would be understood first, real conversation can start and if we understand players intention, we can see what else he does i.e. keeps the trail elbow in to generate more force against that inertia at the club. How are you going to have intention data? |
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Post by teeace on Jan 8, 2014 8:43:17 GMT -5
' WHATTTTT!!!!!! Do you mean they loose their grip?? Sorry to be myself again, but that's about impossible physically and if some data shows that, definitions or calibration is wrong. The AMM data for tour pros vs amateurs show a distinct speed difference between left forearm vs right forearm sup/pro between P6.5 to P7.5. It's not impossible because you can indepently pronate and supinate your forearms while your hands are on the shaft without losing your grip (although some pros actually lose their right hand grip at times). The more your elbow is bent the less the movement of the humerus affects forearm rotation. If your arms were perfectly straight (which they aren't until well past impact - if at all in some) then the action of the humerus would play a bigger role in axial rotation of the shaft. It's still a secondary influence of the axial rotation of the shaft compared to your forearms. No way Clay, that's not reality and only shows there is holes in those measurements. |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 8, 2014 8:47:50 GMT -5
We can agree to disagree about the severity of the "holes" in the data.
But the humerus rotates quite differently than the radius/ulna. Also, the more the elbow is bent the less influence the humerus rotation has on the axial rotation of the shaft and the more the movement of the radius/ulna influence axial rotation of the shaft. There are many influences that determine axial rotation influenced by body/arm/hand position.
If your arms were perfectly straight I would agree with your position. But they aren't in golf.
How are you going to obtain intention data?
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Post by teeace on Jan 8, 2014 9:03:01 GMT -5
We can agree to disagree about the severity of the "holes" in the data. But the humerus rotates quite differently than the radius/ulna. Also, the more the elbow is bent the less influence the humerus rotation has on the axial rotation of the shaft and the more the movement of the radius/ulna influence axial rotation of the shaft. There are many influences that determine axial rotation influenced by body/arm/hand position. If your arms were perfectly straight I would agree with your position. But they aren't in golf. How are you going to obtain intention data? There is many things that rotate shaft axially and one big part of that is PF move that also moves back of the left hand away from the line of humerus and forearm and can be thought as supination with those devices. And I don't have to measure intention data, even it can be calculated when speeds and paths of the objects are known and we could calculate some kind of zero level in rotations by forces. But we who work with real players just know what they do because they tell it for us. There is one new video at my own forum about that left arm movement acegolf.proboards.com/thread/5/forearm-rotation-needed |
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Jan 8, 2014 9:42:05 GMT -5
Tapio -
Do you have a YouTube version? You have to be a member to view your video.
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