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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 20, 2010 21:13:47 GMT -5
Since we have a variety of swing instructors and/or knowledgeable golfers about the swing, I thought we'd play a game and go thru some players on the major professional Tours and pretend that the golfer has come to us for advice on their swing and what we have to say.
First up, the grand puba of them all...Tiger Woods.
What would you suggest to Woods if he came to you for swing advice looking to improve his ballstriking?
I'll post my thoughts in a bit.
3JACK
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Post by nothere on Mar 20, 2010 21:56:21 GMT -5
Since we have a variety of swing instructors and/or knowledgeable golfers about the swing, I thought we'd play a game and go thru some players on the major professional Tours and pretend that the golfer has come to us for advice on their swing and what we have to say. First up, the grand puba of them all...Tiger Woods. What would you suggest to Woods if he came to you for swing advice looking to improve his ballstriking? I'll post my thoughts in a bit. 3JACK Build a time machine and go back to 2000, or if that's not an option try to get back the swing of 2000 if he can. |
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 20, 2010 22:00:01 GMT -5
Grip change, trying to be on the elbow plane with such a large #3 angle while having a palm grip (pretty much zeroing out #3) doesn't make things easier. Overall I like many pieces of his swing. Don't think he needs an overhaul or huge changes
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 20, 2010 22:45:41 GMT -5
I would probably present a bunch of things and figure out what he wants to do.
I see his big issue as the driver. He used to be the *best* driver on Tour. Now, not even close.
I think it hurt him in the PGA because he was stuck hitting irons and fairway woods off the tee and easing off a driver and leaving himself with a lot of club into the greens. Of course, his iron play was quite good, but had he been better with the driver he could've left himself with much shorter shots into the green and likely would've scored better.
According to a Golf Digest article from last year, Tiger has a -3* attack angle with the driver. I'm willing to bet, from looking at his swing, that his path is out to the right a bit. So when he hits the dead block, his face is just getting wide open at impact and matching the path (or right of the path)
I think the grip needs to change with the left hand. My point would be that Haney is a guy with driver yips, missing drivers dead right, and Tiger started to miss drivers dead right with a lot more frequency under Haney and the grip is the big reason why. I think iteachgolf nailed it.
From there, I would probably talk about the attack angle, how it's a bit steep even by PGA Tour level golf and how it moves the plane right out to the right which can help make those dead blocks. It also is a loss of distance. Tiger might prefer the window of that attack angle, but I think you can get a nice window out of a -1 or 0* attack angle.
I'd also tell him to junk the parallel plane idea and just keep the #4 PP connected on the backwing so he doesn't get laid off as much at the top.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 20, 2010 23:42:53 GMT -5
I don't know why you think that Tiger's grip is a problem.
He has a weak left hand grip, but it is a finger grip and not a palm grip. Look at the photos in his own book. Although I prefer a strong single action grip as a general rule, I cannot understand how Tiger's weak left hand grip produces a specific swing problem.
I also don't think that there is any problem with Tiger's backswing - even though I don't believe in Haney's congruent angles concept and even though I personally prefer a RFT instead of an one-piece takeaway.
I think that Tiger has a near-perfect end-backswing position - even though he prefers to have an anatomically FLW rather than a geometrically FLW. The misalignment of his left arm flying wedge is miniscule.
If I had one chance to influence Tiger's driver swing, I would like to see him pivot slower, so that he doesn't throw his arms away from his body in the mid-late downswing. I would like to see him swing more like John Erickson, where the pivoting torso and arms are more synchronously connected throughout the downswing. I think that his driving accuracy would likely improve, even if he gave up a small amount of distance. His short iron swing looks to me to be much more synchronised/coordinated than his driver swing.
Jeff.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 21, 2010 9:12:13 GMT -5
Wasn't that book written before he started working with Haney?
In the latest 'Haney Project', HH said the first thing he taught Tiger was to change his grip an get it more into the palm instead of the fingers.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 21, 2010 16:57:42 GMT -5
3jack
The book was pre-Haney.
If anybody has evidence that Tiger uses a palm grip for his left hand, I would like to see the evidence. It would amaze me if he really uses a mid-palm grip.
Jeff.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 21, 2010 17:06:20 GMT -5
Watch the last episode of the Haney Project with Ray Romano. He says that is exactly what he taught Tiger. It's not dead concrete evidence, but certainly excellent circumstantial evidence IMO.
3JACK
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Post by jonnygrouville on Mar 21, 2010 20:28:42 GMT -5
It might not strictly be a palm (or mid-palm) grip, but it is certainly less in the fingers as described in Haney's book.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 21, 2010 21:20:50 GMT -5
I decided to get the facts straight - regarding the Haney left hand grip. Here is the photo from his recent book.  This is close to a typical lower palmar grip. The grip is over the heel pad (hypothenar eminence) rather than being below the heel pad. It is definitely not a mid-palm grip, which goes up the lifeline crease. It is nearly identical to the low palm grip recommended by most golf instructors, and it is close to the the grip that I recommend in my grip chapter.  This is the Hogan grip, which I recommend. It is a low palmar grip, and the grip is slightly closer to the fingers than the Haney grip, but the difference is relatively small. Jeff. |
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cameo
Beat up Radials
Posts: 26
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Post by cameo on Mar 22, 2010 8:57:59 GMT -5
Tiger Woods has on occasion an over acceleration of his pivot and tends to squat or over flex too much into the ground . Grip could be a fraction stronger however what he needs is more torso extension of his right side in transition phase which would give more pivot towards the ball / counterfall motion which in turn would slow down his pivot rather then the band aid fixes like swing the arms faster / arms in front
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Post by golfbaka on Mar 22, 2010 9:00:23 GMT -5
I reckon he should join ABS, though I wonder if Tiger can still afford $200 for each modules Sorry. Seriously though...
I think Tiger would be better off just going entirely his own way. If I was Tiger's coach I'd just nod and say 'what do you think? what are you trying to achieve?' and just let him figure it out... I wonder if he / Haney regularly use Trackman. I'm presuming Nike use it when they fit his clubs...
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 22, 2010 10:17:50 GMT -5
I decided to get the facts straight - regarding the Haney left hand grip. Here is the photo from his recent book. This is close to a typical lower palmar grip. The grip is over the heel pad (hypothenar eminence) rather than being below the heel pad. It is definitely not a mid-palm grip, which goes up the lifeline crease. It is nearly identical to the low palm grip recommended by most golf instructors, and it is close to the the grip that I recommend in my grip chapter. This is the Hogan grip, which I recommend. It is a low palmar grip, and the grip is slightly closer to the fingers than the Haney grip, but the difference is relatively small. Jeff. Grips look very different to me with respect to PP2 and its location. Hank's grip has PP2 under the grip and is zeroing out PA3. Hogan has PP2 on top of the shaft, so he can use PA3 correctly. Hank's is pretty close to his lifeline and more than just a little closer to the fingers.  No way Haney could support the club with just one finger and PP2 on the side of the shaft like Hogan in this photo.  |
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 22, 2010 10:52:32 GMT -5
Dan,
You seem to be implying that PP#2 is the heel pad (hypothenar eminence) of the left hand.
I think that you are wrong - I think that PP#2 is the last three fingers of the left hand.
See page 79 of the 7th edition of the TGM book.
I agree that Haney's grip would not allow a golfer to hold the club - like Hogan - because the heel pad is above the grip in Hogan's grip, while the heel pad is alongside the grip in Haney's grip. I pointed out that difference in my previous post.
I think that only a mid-palm grip (in the lifeline) zeroes-out the Acc#3 angle. Haney's grip just diminishes the magnitude of the Ac#3 angle - compared to Hogan's grip, which is lower in the palm.
Jeff.
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 22, 2010 11:57:22 GMT -5
Tiger is trying to swing on the elbow plane with a large PA3 angle so his grip makes that much harder to accomplish, which is what I said in the beginning. PP2 is tied in with heelpad location. They are directly related and I was typing fast and in S&T PP2 is often referred to as the heelpad.
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