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Post by dodger on Feb 1, 2010 12:43:18 GMT -5
My game would be lost without TGM, the sites explaining the concepts, and fellow travelers like Kevin. Bottom line, you can learn a lot about the swing from this great forum and blog, from Yoda's site, Manzella's, Chuck Evans... You just need to know what your game needs. This requires eyes like Kevin or other instructors who understand that learning golf is an endless journey. I do agree with Richie one hundred percent on the clubs issue. Very simply, oversized clubs have not changed the amateur games that much. Also, the lighter the club, the more difficult it is to monitor the sweetspot, in my opinion.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 1, 2010 19:02:58 GMT -5
I think the oversized irons have made golfers by and large, worse. Without question. The drivers are a bit of a different story. I don't think they have improved swings by any means, but the distance gained from them is too great to deny. But the distance in irons is not great enough to justify the oversized irons and golfers have become less adept with the golf swing because irons are geared to reward them for major flaws and compensations in their swing.
3JACK
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Post by dodger on Feb 2, 2010 11:20:02 GMT -5
A bit more opinion on clubs. The most forgiving aspect of a club is not whether it is cavity backed or has a high moi, in my opinion it is the sole design. One reason blades are difficult to hit is the flat sole and sharp leading edge many have incorporated in the design. Hogan made an apex model in the early 70's with a rounded sole that was really tough to hit fat. It is possible to build a really forgiving blade. I would start with a short hosel and rounded sole. You can still maintain a thin top line and no offset. Make them a half inch shorter than standard, with a swingweight of at least D2. After the lie is adjusted, a lot of 14 handicaps would become much better iron players.
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Post by kevcarter on Feb 2, 2010 11:23:11 GMT -5
A bit more opinion on clubs. The most forgiving aspect of a club is not whether it is cavity backed or has a high moi, in my opinion it is the sole design. One reason blades are difficult to hit is the flat sole and sharp leading edge many have incorporated in the design. Hogan made an apex model in the early 70's with a rounded sole that was really tough to hit fat. It is possible to build a really forgiving blade. I would start with a short hosel and rounded sole. You can still maintain a thin top line and no offset. Make them a half inch shorter than standard, with a swingweight of at least D2. After the lie is adjusted, a lot of 14 handicaps would become much better iron players. Great description Dodger! Remember the Ben Hogan Radials? They were not cavity backs, but they were a very forgiving club for the higher handicappers because of the sole, just as you said. Kevin
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 2, 2010 12:03:41 GMT -5
A bit more opinion on clubs. The most forgiving aspect of a club is not whether it is cavity backed or has a high moi, in my opinion it is the sole design. One reason blades are difficult to hit is the flat sole and sharp leading edge many have incorporated in the design. Hogan made an apex model in the early 70's with a rounded sole that was really tough to hit fat. It is possible to build a really forgiving blade. I would start with a short hosel and rounded sole. You can still maintain a thin top line and no offset. Make them a half inch shorter than standard, with a swingweight of at least D2. After the lie is adjusted, a lot of 14 handicaps would become much better iron players. Great description Dodger! Remember the Ben Hogan Radials? They were not cavity backs, but they were a very forgiving club for the higher handicappers because of the sole, just as you said. Kevin my first set of clubs I ever bought with my own cash was a set of Hogan Edge which was a forged cavity back back in 92' or so, similar to my current MP57's. I think it offered the best of both worlds, they were forged, thin top line with a moderate sole. Great set of clubs for a first time buy.
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Post by dodger on Feb 2, 2010 15:18:33 GMT -5
I have a buddy I play with that still plays with the radial. He hits them great, he can hit a 5 iron 180 yards which is pretty good with 1983 lofts. I think the radial sole is a little too wide. I actually think the Miura baby blades are the closest to my description, they have a beatifully rounded sole. However they cost more than my first two automobiles, tough to warrant a mortgage payment on golf clubs. I also used to play with the Hogan Edge GS, which were forged irons that had less offset than the typical Edge. Great clubs.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 2, 2010 17:49:13 GMT -5
The sole is very important as far as forgiveness. But the clubs are bigger, the sweetspot is bigger and the COG is lower on the clubface, all things that make clubs much more forgiving. My reasoning with the clubs making golfers worse is that they are basically designed to help golfer's with their shortcomings.
Don't generate much clubhead speed? We'll give you an ultra light club with aerodynamic heads and hot faces so you can have that speed generated for you.
Have a cut-across OTT move and hit a slice? We'll make the club much more upright and make it more difficult to hit that slice?
Have crappy low point control? We'll make the sole wider so when you hit more turf and less ball, you can still get the ball going.
My IPT's are really not that difficult to hit and my swing is quite aways away from where I want to hit it. But, as I keep hitting them, my brain and motor skills keep improving and I have become more precise with my impact alignments.
I think that most of the irons today, especially the offset, oversided shovels we see are really meant for the golfer that golfs a few times a week, but has no interest in putting in the work necessary to improve their golf game.
3JACK
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