johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Jan 26, 2010 0:08:49 GMT -5
I have to be honest. I've only been online participating in forums and thinks like this for just over a year and I am blown away by the number of instructors that know so much more than I do. I don't really have a style, a system, any biomechanics training, TGM authorization or anything like what I read about from other teachers.
My main goal is speed. There are so few things that I worry about before speed. Someone much smarter than me will have to tell me but if a player creates a lot of speed, how many things can be going wrong. Granted, direction is important also but if they have decent direction and a ton of speed it comes down to a tweak here and there.
Maybe I'm going about this all wrong and surely I may be oversimplifying things a little but this is pretty much what I do. I don't understand a golfers desire to hit the ball vs make the club go fast. You need to make the club go fast. The ball is the only part of the swing that is virtually repetitive. It almost always just sits there. How many other activities are there with so much concern over an object that isn't moving? The goal of the swing is the swing. Striking the ball is the result.
Nevermind me. I'm just spouting and I look forward to continuing my learning from coaches that actually know what they're doing.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 26, 2010 0:42:26 GMT -5
Not at all, John. Homer Kelley in TGM specifically talks about how a golfer should worry about their power first and then accuracy, but that if they have the power then the accuracy (and consistency) will likely follow.
The golfer that comes wayyyy over the top usually sees a DRAMATIC loss in power. HK would want the golfer to get better geometry in their swing and the 'physics would follow.' Even if you don't quite agree with that, I think his line of thinking was in the right direction and I think you've been on the right track all along.
3JACK
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Post by TeddyIrons on Jan 26, 2010 1:49:47 GMT -5
John, what about acceleration? Wouldn't that be a better goal than raw speed?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Jan 30, 2010 14:20:10 GMT -5
John I can sympathize with your primary focus on generating maximum clubhead speed first, rather than focusing on controlling the 3-D movement of the clubhead arc and/or clubface angle at impact. However, there are many different opinions on how best to move the body/arms in order to to maximize clubhead speed at impact, and a golfer still has a lot of biomechanical/mechanical choices when choosing a swing style to maximise his clubhead speed. Consider how differently Jason Zuback and Jamie Sadlowksi move their bodies in space. See Jason's swing - www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izmb_3F0y88See Jamie's swing - www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-qidwgCIIJeff.
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Jan 30, 2010 14:49:19 GMT -5
John I can sympathize with your primary focus on generating maximum clubhead speed first, rather than focusing on controlling the 3-D movement of the clubhead arc and/or clubface angle at impact. However, there are many different opinions on how best to move the body/arms in order to to maximize clubhead speed at impact, and a golfer still has a lot of biomechanical/mechanical choices when choosing a swing style to maximise his clubhead speed. Consider how differently Jason Zuback and Jamie Sadlowksi move their bodies in space. See Jason's swing - www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izmb_3F0y88See Jamie's swing - www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-qidwgCIIJeff. Sounds great. Let them choose. Make it look effortless if accuracy will be needed.
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joec
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 161
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Post by joec on Jan 30, 2010 16:57:14 GMT -5
john, what led you to teaching just speed? what do you have your students do?
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Jan 30, 2010 21:43:07 GMT -5
I guess I should be a little more clear. There's a particular look of flow that I'm seeking and I like to see the club work well on it's own. I know that it doesn't but visually it has that look. The look that separates 'this person knows how to swing it and this person doesn't.' To me, that look is what the club does.
I focus a lot of time on the tool and what it feels like while it travels through the air. I want them to know that the tool is not balanced and depending on its shape, the club will tell you everything about where it is if you just 'listen'.
I see way too many people that come to me from lesson after lesson of hearing what they should be doing. You go here, move this there etc. Noone is telling them what the club should do. Noone is showing them what the club feels like while it's swinging. Noone is showing them how easy the swing really is and I think it is a piece of cake.
Playing the game is another story but hitting an object on the ground that isn't moving with a tool that easily produces a ton of speed is quite simple. I love the science and the why of things and I love to explain it to people but most people have no idea how to learn from the club.
For the most part, I am a developmental coach. I work with juniors and college players mostly and I think effortless looking speed has a particular look and I want my players to have that look.
That's why I do what I do.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Jan 30, 2010 22:01:25 GMT -5
I love the science and the why of things and I love to explain it to people but most people have no idea how to learn from the club. Gotta agree on this. I think it's very important *to me* to understand the science and to basically understand everything I can, but now I'm trying to train myself to swing the club the way it was designed to be hit. 3JACK
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joec
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 161
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Post by joec on Jan 31, 2010 13:56:31 GMT -5
john, you have my interest. maybe you could show some videos of the swing you describe. better yet, some vids of bad swings and what you would do to correct them. it has never been easy for me. ha.
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joec
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 161
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Post by joec on Feb 1, 2010 20:17:40 GMT -5
john, ben doyle says a fork works like a fork, a hammer works like a hammer, etc. i hear you saying a club should work like a club. where are most people messing up the club action? i think 3jack is saying the same thing. are you thinking about swinging the sweet spot? how do you learn to swing to fit the eye you have for the swing? or, how do you think the club works? please, have your people tell my people, and the earlier the better.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 1, 2010 20:46:58 GMT -5
There's a beauty behind 'impact fix.' You can put the club in a position that it's designed to be at impact. That's why I don't like excessive forward shaft lean. Take the club and lean it way forward. Does the club look like it was designed to be hit that way at impact? It sure doesn't to me.
I had (have) a weird thing where on chips and pitches I would lean the club wayyy forward. Then I would try the same thing on full swings and it would actually cause clubhead throwaway. So basically I'm trying to pivot more and pivot effectively on the downswing where I get the clubhead to the ball by using my pivot more.
Basically there's less and less thought about keeping the left wrist flat at impact and more thought about the pivot, particularly past impact and the left wrist is flat naturally. But if you try to 'freeze the right wrist' or 'throw the right arm' and not use your pivot, then I think some problems may occur.
3JACK
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 1, 2010 22:27:59 GMT -5
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 1, 2010 22:36:28 GMT -5
john, ben doyle says a fork works like a fork, a hammer works like a hammer, etc. i hear you saying a club should work like a club. where are most people messing up the club action? i think 3jack is saying the same thing. are you thinking about swinging the sweet spot? how do you learn to swing to fit the eye you have for the swing? or, how do you think the club works? please, have your people tell my people, and the earlier the better. I think most people fail to recognize two things. First, the ball isn't moving. It has no bearing on the swing. Most people are trying to learn a ball result before they learn a swing result. Second, I think most people fail to understand that the club is an unbalanced stick with a heavy end that hits the ball. Too many people use so much energy actually trying to move the heaviest end with their muscles before they move the light end. I'm a big fan of Ernest Jones even though I had never heard of him when I was teaching until just this year. The string with a rock on the end is a fantastic picture for how you use a club like a club. light assembly(the string) moves a heavy object on the end of it. In the downswing you need to keep the string taut so it can move the heavy end.
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Post by begolfpro on Feb 7, 2010 17:57:59 GMT -5
I agree with John, the swing is simple if we just let it happen. Of course there has to be some direction because even the simplest things can be done incorrectly. A great teacher that MANY have not heard of is Jim McLellan, and NO is NOT Jim Mclean. They are two different people. He can be found at www.mcgolf.com/He teaches the simplest swing on the net but nothing about swinging left or right depending on the club you are using. So armed with his simple swing and the knowledge I have gained from Brian Manzella's forum and this one I am on a mission Bradley
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Post by pavaveda on Feb 7, 2010 23:18:03 GMT -5
Bradley, This is the first time I've seen Jim McLellan, but, to me, it seems a little off-putting. Showing-off hitting left-handed drivers right-handed. Saying that he took a 30 year lay-off, but has been teaching for 50 years. Plus, he essentially restates George Knudson's philosophy of a good golf swing; Get prepared in your backswing correctly, know where you want to finish and let everything in between take care of itself. I'd recommend reading Knudson's book, "The Natural Golf Swing" instead.
Russ
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