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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 10:28:51 GMT -5
As a follow up to the thread about Brian Manzella's video on twisting the club about itself and tumble, I put together this video.
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Post by monkutare on Oct 6, 2010 11:45:48 GMT -5
Where should the back of the left forearm face at impact and how can you develop the feel for this?
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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 12:18:30 GMT -5
Where should the back of the left forearm face at impact and how can you develop the feel for this? That depends on your grip. Pretend you are wearing a watch on your left arm. Neutral Grip - The watch face should face the target. Strong Grip - The watch face should face the ball. Weak Grip - The watch face should face your left knee. You will likely be somewhere in between all of these. So I have a nice simple relationship that I like to use. Pretend there is a steering wheel attached to the grip. The butt end of the grip would be sticking right out of the center of the steering wheel. Now, take your grip on the golf club and try to relate where your forearms would cause your hands to be on the steering wheel. For example. My neutral grip would put my left hand at the 9 o'clock position and my right hand at the 3 o'clock position. Someone with a strong single action grip (strong left hand, weak right hand) would have their left hand placed at 11 o'clock and their right hand at 1 o'clock. Now, when you swing the club you just need to turn the steering wheel back to where it was at the setup so that your hands are back at their positions. I sort of explain that in my grip video. (I fumbled a bit while talking) www.youtube.com/watch?v=htZmOIZWjzU
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Post by nothere on Oct 6, 2010 12:35:02 GMT -5
Ringer, i think we do live on the same planet after watching your vid ..lol, nice job and i haven't seen or heard anyone explain those conditions the way you have, excellent, maybe that would have been a good info tip for your Golf Channel vid, anyways thanks.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 13:34:38 GMT -5
Thanks nothere.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 6, 2010 17:22:39 GMT -5
Ringer
I respectfully disagree with some of your opinions.
You state that a golfer i) twists the club about itself and a golfer ii) tumbles in the mid-downswing and steepens the clubshaft.
I have never seen those two phenomena happen in a professional golfer's (swinger's) downswing. Do you have a swing video of a professional golfer tumbling in mid-downswing, and steepening the clubshaft plane angle? When does a professional golfer (who is a swinger) ever twist the clubshaft about itself?
You also write regarding the position of the back of the left forearm at impact-: "Neutral Grip - The watch face should face the target. Strong Grip - The watch face should face the ball. Weak Grip - The watch face should face your left knee."
I disagree. At address, a golfer adopts a weak grip (1 knuckle grip) by having the left forearm neutral - neither pronated or supinated. At impact with the ball placed at low point, the left forearm should return to neutral - neither pronated or supinated. Therefore, the back of the left forearm, and watch face, should face the target with a weak grip. When a golfer adopts a slightly strong grip (2-3 knuckle grip) at address, the left forearm should be pronated so that the left thumb faces the 1 o'clock position. That represents about 20 degrees of left forearm rotation. At impact, the left forearm should get back to that same position, so the watch face should face 20 degrees right of the target. With a very strong grip (4-knuckle), the left forearm has to be significantly pronated at address - >45 degrees. At impact, the left forearm should return to that same orientation - which means that the watch face should face >45 degrees right-of-the-target.
Another mootable point - you state that forward shaft lean (having an arched left wrist and bent right wrist) doesn't affect the clubface. I think that you are wrong. If a golfer has forward shaft lean at impact (with the ball placed behind low point), then the clubface will be slightly open - because the point of impact is up-plane relative to low point.
Jeff.
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Post by nothere on Oct 6, 2010 18:50:34 GMT -5
Ringer I respectfully disagree with some of your opinions. You state that a golfer i) twists the club about itself and a golfer ii) tumbles in the mid-downswing and steepens the clubshaft. I have never seen those two phenomena happen in a professional golfer's (swinger's) downswing. Do you have a swing video of a professional golfer tumbling in mid-downswing, and steepening the clubshaft plane angle? When does a professional golfer (who is a swinger) ever twist the clubshaft about itself? You also write regarding the position of the back of the left forearm at impact-: "Neutral Grip - The watch face should face the target. Strong Grip - The watch face should face the ball. Weak Grip - The watch face should face your left knee." I disagree. At address, a golfer adopts a weak grip (1 knuckle grip) by having the left forearm neutral - neither pronated or supinated. At impact with the ball placed at low point, the left forearm should return to neutral - neither pronated or supinated. Therefore, the back of the left forearm, and watch face, should face the target with a weak grip. When a golfer adopts a slightly strong grip (2-3 knuckle grip) at address, the left forearm should be pronated so that the left thumb faces the 1 o'clock position. That represents about 20 degrees of left forearm rotation. At impact, the left forearm should get back to that same position, so the watch face should face 20 degrees right of the target. With a very strong grip (4-knuckle), the left forearm has to be significantly pronated at address - >45 degrees. At impact, the left forearm should return to that same orientation - which means that the watch face should face >45 degrees right-of-the-target. Another mootable point - you state that forward shaft lean (having an arched left wrist and bent right wrist) doesn't affect the clubface. I think that you are wrong. If a golfer has forward shaft lean at impact (with the ball placed behind low point), then the clubface will be slightly open - because the point of impact is up-plane relative to low point. Jeff. Jeff do you flip the clubhead? I would like to see you post your swing.
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jamo
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 142
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Post by jamo on Oct 6, 2010 18:56:03 GMT -5
I think there is one problem in your logic. If you have a forward leaning shaft (which it sounds like you say is a good thing, and I agree) your wrist is, in effect, still cocked. In this video you clearly show that when they wrist is cocked 90* your wrist does alter clubface direction. Thus if you have a forward leaning shaft at impact (which would mean your wrist is slightly cocked) your wrist would still have an effect on clubface angle.
Look forward to hearing your reply.
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Post by nothere on Oct 6, 2010 19:46:12 GMT -5
I think there is one problem in your logic. If you have a forward leaning shaft (which it sounds like you say is a good thing, and I agree) your wrist is, in effect, still cocked. In this video you clearly show that when they wrist is cocked 90* your wrist does alter clubface direction. Thus if you have a forward leaning shaft at impact (which would mean your wrist is slightly cocked) your wrist would still have an effect on clubface angle. Look forward to hearing your reply. Which wrist is still cocked at impact? or do you mean the right wrist is still bent back?
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jamo
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 142
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Post by jamo on Oct 6, 2010 19:55:02 GMT -5
I think there is one problem in your logic. If you have a forward leaning shaft (which it sounds like you say is a good thing, and I agree) your wrist is, in effect, still cocked. In this video you clearly show that when they wrist is cocked 90* your wrist does alter clubface direction. Thus if you have a forward leaning shaft at impact (which would mean your wrist is slightly cocked) your wrist would still have an effect on clubface angle. Look forward to hearing your reply. Which wrist is still cocked at impact? or do you mean the right wrist is still bent back? The right wrist is still bent back. Just pick up a club and try it. Keep your hands in relatively the address position and create a right angle by bending your right wrist back, like in the video. It doesn't have to go a full 90*, just bend it to mimic an ideal forward shaft lean that you would be looking for at impact. Your wrists are free to rotate (independent of your forearms), just like in the video, and when they do they alter the clubface angle. Now turn your shoulders/arms through the shot, without letting go of the wrist angle, until you are at solid impact positions, with the hands leading and the right wrist still bent. Your wrists should still be a similar position, and they should be free to rotate and alter the clubface angle. Looking forward to what you guys think.
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Post by nothere on Oct 6, 2010 20:06:52 GMT -5
Which wrist is still cocked at impact? or do you mean the right wrist is still bent back? The right wrist is still bent back. Just pick up a club and try it. Keep your hands in relatively the address position and create a right angle by bending your right wrist back, like in the video. It doesn't have to go a full 90*, just bend it to mimic an ideal forward shaft lean that you would be looking for at impact. Your wrists are free to rotate (independent of your forearms), just like in the video, and when they do they alter the clubface angle. Now turn your shoulders/arms through the shot, without letting go of the wrist angle, until you are at solid impact positions, with the hands leading and the right wrist still bent. Your wrists should still be a similar position, and they should be free to rotate and alter the clubface angle. Looking forward to what you guys think. Yes i was just clarifying your term of wrist still "cocked at impact" i get the rest and i think in that position ( left wrist arched and right bent back at impact) you would have to rotate your forearm with your wrist together, i believe that's where flipping comes from no forearm rotation and the wrist trying by itself to square the face. Just my opinion.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Oct 6, 2010 20:13:36 GMT -5
Jamo, You wrote-: "Your wrists are free to rotate (independent of your forearms)". I believe that it is biomechanically impossible for the wrists to rotate independently of the forearms. See - perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htmJeff.
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Post by nothere on Oct 6, 2010 20:18:14 GMT -5
Jamo, You wrote-: "Your wrists are free to rotate (independent of your forearms)". I believe that it is biomechanically impossible for the wrists to rotate independently of the forearms. See - perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htmJeff. I finally agree with you. Mark the time and date.
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jamo
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 142
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Post by jamo on Oct 6, 2010 20:23:04 GMT -5
Jamo, You wrote-: "Your wrists are free to rotate (independent of your forearms)". I believe that it is biomechanically impossible for the wrists to rotate independently of the forearms. See - perfectgolfswingreview.net/wrist.htmJeff. It could be that my terminology is off. Look at Ringer's video at about 5:05. He has the club at a 90* angle and his wrists are free to, as he calls it, "twist." His forearms don't twist, but his wrists do, and it alters the clubface. My contention is that if when his right wrist is hinged like it is there and he is able to manipulate the clubface primarily with his wrists, if his right wrist is hinged at impact (as he shows that it should be when he demonstrates impact), his wrists should still be free to "twist". My terms could be off but if you try that demonstration from my last post I think you will get what I mean.
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Post by Ringer on Oct 6, 2010 20:36:26 GMT -5
Ringer I respectfully disagree with some of your opinions. What a shocker. Every golf swing that has ever existed that in any way faces the back of the left hand towards the players head at the top of the backswing. What do you think brings that hand back to the ball? Left arm wedge turns and drops while the forearm rolls. Show me a golfer who DOESN'T do that. You and I clearly have different interpretations of what "neutral" is. You think my neutral is weak. I think your neutral is strong. I start out with the idea of someone clapping their hands out in front of them. That's neutral to me. Apparently neutral for you is someone clapping with their left hand slightly higher and rotated 15 degrees. Sorry Jeff but you've missed the point entirely. If you are striking the ball more up the plane and the face is open, then that just means you haven't had enough time to rotate that forearm yet. Think of it this way. You know how I broke down the two ways you can rotate the forearm to being the door knob turn or a whole arm turn? Well the "whole arm" turn is Brian's "Tumble". Just turning the forearm is the "twist about itself". The wrist may bend and arch to compensate but when you bring it to the ball, it's still 100% reliant on the direction that forearm is facing. But lets just keep going with your disagreement. What if we put the ball back so far in our path that it's hip high off our right hip. The clubface would be wide open, would it not? But guess what, so is your forearm.
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