Feels For On Plane After Impact

[kevcarter]

The key is you need to pivot on the downswing and move the plane line to the left using the pivot instead of using the hands and arms. One of the things I struggle with is that I don't pivot with the shoulders enough and get the clubhead to the ball by using my arms and hands instead of the pivoting shoulders.

Richie, I am currently struggling with the same issue. I have never cared for the term swinging left as it is too vague, I prefer swinging back up the plane much as you are trying to do.

I would encourage you to continue discussing your "feels" for accomplishing this in your swing. It would be a huge help to me as we move forward.

Thank You,
Kevin

[kevcarter]

I forgot to mention one of the things I am working on. It was suggested by Leo Halloran GSEM,

Lots of 9 to 3 drills.
Take it back to 9:00
Pause
Take it to 3:00 only using your pivot
No Hands
Start from the ground up

My hands activate too soon after impact, my pivot stalls, and I sling my hands too far right. Hard work, but I'm getting there slowly...

Kevin

[hitman119]

I used this for a while. When I worked with a Mclean instructor. This was actually my swing thought when I played my best golf. My down swing was flatter than it is now. I could not get the clubhead outside the planeline if I tried (aka over the top). I use to feel like my hands were trying to hit my left pocket through impact not before. This worked until I decided to change my swing to learn more about the golf swing.

[imperfectgolfer]

Kevin

I agree that the mental idea of "swinging left" is really equivalent to keeping the clubshaft on-plane in the followthrough (from impact to the 4th parallel).

I also agree that concentrating on continuing to actively pivot post-impact is an essential ingredient.

I think that two swing thoughts may be useful.

1) Turning the navel (central abdominal area) actively towards the target in the late downswing.

2) Making sure that the right arm extends actively down-the-line (as if shaking hands with a person who is "x" degrees left-of-the- target) post-impact.

Jeff.

[kevcarter]

Jeff,

Those two thoughts sound like another two big pieces of my puzzle. I am hitting balls again Monday and will work hard on both ideas. Thanks for the help!

Kevin

[Richie3Jack]

You can thank nyc lagster at his gotham golf blog for his insights on 'swinging left' is more or less 'staying on plane' past impact. The feeling I get is on the downswing I'm trying to turn the shoulders pretty much flat on the downswing. Yesterday I was working on this and started to see improvements, but I started to feel like from the top of the swing I was rotating my shoulders in such a way that it felt like I was rotating the right shoulder into the golf ball.

How do you do this w/o coming way OTT?

You have to remain right wrist bend from P4 into P6. If you rotate the shoulders, keep the right wrist bend into P6 and have a bent right arm, you won't come over the top.

It will feel like you're trying to hit a big time slice, but I actually rarely do that. There's still some issues I'm working out, but it's mostly in controlling the low point, so a lot of thins and fats.




3JACK

[kevcarter]

Like Judge Smails, "I never slice"

For me, it would probably feel good to come OTT just freaking once to see what it's like!

Kevin

[Richie3Jack]

The big thing for *me* is to not over-accelerate the hands. When I do that, the following can happen:

1. Hit it thin

2. Hit it off the toe.

3. Hit it mega-fat

4. Hit a push fade/push slice

It will feel like 'throwaway' with me, but if you pivot the shoulders properly, keep the right arm bent at impact and stay bent to P8, you won't flip.

It's amazing how much better I hit my fairway woods and hybrid. I think the best shots I've hit with those clubs in the last 12 months have come from staying on plane past impact.




3JACK

[gmbtempe]

Well this has been a good thread for me. Instead of swinging to left I felt I used by shoulder to turn the plane left and then just kept rotating left. I hit about 30 or so 8 irons using this after getting down and I would say I got the following rough estimates

a couple of pull hook (my normal miss)
5-10 straight pulls but no more than 10 yards left
10-15 straight or pull fade that ended up on target
5-10 push but playable
and 1-5 push slice

Ball flight was a little lower and maybe a 1/2 club shorter but this might just be not trusting it. The swing felt a little weird because there is not this big sweep release, its a tighter feeling.

When I went to the driver and woods I just tried to feel like I was using a plane line on the ball target line with rotation. Interesting as I never hit pull fades or dead straight shots, its usually pull hooks, pull, push hooks.

[gmbtempe]

More work on this today, amazingly more on plane back and through to the finish.

I assume this discussion (and swinging left in general) is tied more to a club face closing rate?

What I would do to play a fade or straight ball was turn the plane line using the Hogan stance diagram to the left. I made the same swing described above, which feels over the top but its not, then low and left with no face manipulation. I want to hit a push draw/draw I make my normal square-square setup and hit that shot pattern. If I setup like Hogan closed with a driver it hooks to much.

[Richie3Jack]

It has a lot to do with clubface closing rate. As Lake told me, the face stays square past impact. If you swing out to the right, the face will close past impact. So keep it square at impact, just keep pivoting and you'll get your angled hinge (I really don't buy into horizontal hinging or horizontal hinging being a smart way to hinge a club).

The big thing here is that on the downswing, the shoulders feel to me like they are turning VERY flat. By the time I hit P8 or just a little beyond that point, I want my right shoulder to be level to the ground with my left shoulder. If the right shoulder is way below the left shoulder, that's going to cause some problems.



3JACK

[pavaveda]

Jan 22, 2010 20:49:44 GMT -5 Richie3Jack said:

(I really don't buy into horizontal hinging or horizontal hinging being a smart way to hinge a club).

But isn't horizontal hinging the standard hinging for swingers? (As opposed to angled hinging for hitters.) Asked another way...isn't HH just an effect of the way swingers swing? Not necessarily something they can control.

[Richie3Jack]

Jan 22, 2010 22:34:16 GMT -5 pavaveda said:

Jan 22, 2010 20:49:44 GMT -5 Richie3Jack said:

(I really don't buy into horizontal hinging or horizontal hinging being a smart way to hinge a club).

But isn't horizontal hinging the standard hinging for swingers? (As opposed to angled hinging for hitters.) Asked another way...isn't HH just an effect of the way swingers swing? Not necessarily something they can control.

I do believe that all of us 'pull then push' or 'swing then hit.' 6 degree 3D machine data shows us this over and over again.

You're basically pulling from the top of the swing (p4) until around p6 (clubshaft parallel to the ground before impact) Then you push from there.

Even if you think 'pull' or 'swing', you still have some push or hit involved....and vice versa.

HK also states that hinging doesn't dicate whether you are a hitter or swing, the lag loading process does. But I think that's one thing HK got wrong, we actually do both...but hey, the book was *written* back in 1941.

Plus, centrifigul force doesn't really exist according to physicists. I've heard it said that what happens when people call an action 'centrifigul force' it's just saying that in reality there's just a lack of 'centripetal force.'

So in the golf swing, that 'CF release' that MOG calls it or the swinging out to the right and horizontal hinging that TGM calls it is really just the golfer slowing their pivot down too much and losing their Centripetal Force or 'radial acceleration.'

That forces the clubface to actually close past impact where with angled hinging, the clubface stays square past impact. And I think that angled hinging is a superior way to consistently control the clubface.

I *currently* believe that a big importance of the pivot is that if used properly it's the best way to control the clubface.

I'm sure this is confusing (it's still to me , so if you have more questions, please ask.





3JACK

[pavaveda]

Thanks Rich. I'm always impressed with your knowledge of this stuff and I've learned so much and been referred to so many interesting things from your posts.

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

You wrote-: "You're basically pulling from the top of the swing (p4) until around p6 (clubshaft parallel to the ground before impact) Then you push from there.

Even if you think 'pull' or 'swing', you still have some push or hit involved....and vice versa."

I harbor a different opinion. I think that the concept of a "swing-hit" happening in the same swing may apply to some swingers who have an inefficient pivot action that doesn't release PA#4 with sufficient efficacy. However, that situation doesn't necessarily apply to a left arm swinger, who has an efficient pivot action and who releases PA#4 super-efficiently.

See this one-armed swinger.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUTk7m5PozQ

That golfer releases PA#4 very efficiently and he doesn't need any push-pressure at PP#1 to move the left arm faster or any push-pressure at PP#3 to drive-load the club in the late downswing. In the mid-late downswing, his club is being released (passive release of PA#2) by a force that I call a "centrifugal force". Even if you do not believe that there is such a thing as a "centrifugal force", I suspect that you will agree that the "physical force" doesn't involve body muscle power and that it operates according to the principle of the flail (double pendulum swing model).

Note that the golfer also uses horizontal hinging.

You wrote-: "So in the golf swing, that 'CF release' that MOG calls it or the swinging out to the right and horizontal hinging that TGM calls it is really just the golfer slowing their pivot down too much and losing their Centripetal Force or 'radial acceleration.'

That forces the clubface to actually close past impact where with angled hinging, the clubface stays square past impact. And I think that angled hinging is a superior way to consistently control the clubface."

Again, I harbor a totally different point of view. I don't believe that horizontal hinging is due to a slow pivot action. That golfer has a very fast pivot action and he still uses a horizontal hinging action. I think that a slow pivot action through impact predisposes to an uncontrolled crossover release action, which is not the same phenomenon as a horizontal hinging action. A crossover release action is characterised by a left forearm supinatory movement, and a right forearm pronatory movement, post-impact. However, that doesn't happen in horizontal hinging, where the left arm/left forearm/FLW/clubface all rotate at the same rpm - and where the FLW remains vertical to the ground. For that to happen with great fluidity/efficiency, a golfer must pivot well post-impact.



Jack Nicklaus is using horizontal hinging - his left wrist remains vertical to the ground.

Note that he is also "swinging left" in terms of keeping the club "on-plane".

In your intro-thread to Lagpressure's website, you stated that he claims that a swinger "swings right'. He does make that claim, but I think that it is an unfounded opinion, that is not supported by reality in a skilled swinger. A swinger only releases PA#2 via a centrifugal force, and not PA#4. If a golfer pivots well post-impact (like Jack Nicklaus above) so that the left shoulder moves inside-left post-impact, then a skilled swinger should have no problem keeping the clubshaft "on-plane" from impact to the 4th parallel. In other words, I believe that there is no reason why a swinger cannot "swing left".

You also seem to be implying that angled hinging represents a more controlled hinging action, and that a horizontal hinging action is causally related to a slow pivot action.

I disagree.

Here is Ben Hogan using a horizontal hinging action, and nobody can rationally accuse Hogan of having a slow pivot action.



Note that Hogan's hands in image 2 is identical "in orientation" to Nicklaus' hands in image 4 of the Nicklaus series of photos.

Jeff.