Why should a TGM hitter "swing left"?

[imperfectgolfer]

Consider the clubhead path of a golfer.



Note that the clubhead path moves inside-left after low point, and to generate that clubhead path (that stays on the surface of the plane board), a golfer needs to "swing left" after impact.

However, why should a TGM hitter "swing left" when a biomechanically natural movement after impact would produce a clubhead path that is less leftwards (and therefore not tracing the ball-target line's SPL)?



I think that a TGM hitter would more likely produce a clubhead path as shown in green - if he simply releases PA#1 in a direction that is primarily targetwards (giving him a "feel" of shaking hands with the target with his straight right arm post-impact). Why should a TGM hitter force himself to "swing left"?

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

A TGM hitter usually swings on a more upright downswing plane. If they are hitting down, particularly with an iron, they need to swing left, but since their downswig plane is more vertical, they don't need to swing as far left as say a TGM defined 'swinger' who comes down on the elbow plane. Although if they are at impact fix at address, there's a chance that they may have a steeper attack angle, which means they'll have to move the HSP further left in order to square up the path.

Trevino is considered by TGM'ers to be a 'hitter' and he hit extremely down on the ball. I think he was able to 'swing left' the proper amount to hit fades (although he could hit any shot in the book and when I watched him he wasn't afraid to hit it dead straight). I think he accomplished this by simply aiming well to the left.

Trevino said before he became famous, he suffered from a hook. He also points to how stance changes and other changes in his swing rid him of the hook. I would guess during his hook struggling days he probably had a square stance/body at address, the path wound up going well to the right.




3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

You wrote-: "A TGM hitter usually swings on a more upright downswing plane. If they are hitting down, particularly with an iron, they need to swing left."

I respectfully disagree. When hitting down - a TGM hitter can simply move his HSP leftwards by the "appropriate" amount (eg. 3 degrees) and then the clubhead path will face the target at impact. However, he does not need to ensure that his post-impact clubhead path moves inside-left after impact - as long as the clubhead path at impact faces the target.

I previously produced an image where I rotated Chuck Evans' entire clubhead path 3 degrees counterclockwise. I could do the same with the green clubhead path in my above photo. However, the clubhead path would still not be "swinging left" in terms of staying on the surface of the inclined plane (and thereby tracing the leftward-shifted HSP).

Lee Trevino is not a good example of a TGM hitter who wants to hit the ball straight. Lee Trevino swung left in order to generate an out-to-in clubhead path at impact, and thereby produce a consistent pull-fade ball flight.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

Jun 29, 2010 21:25:52 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

3jack

You wrote-: "A TGM hitter usually swings on a more upright downswing plane. If they are hitting down, particularly with an iron, they need to swing left."

I respectfully disagree. When hitting down - a TGM hitter can simply move his HSP leftwards by the "appropriate" amount (eg. 3 degrees) and then the clubhead path will face the target at impact. However, he does not need to ensure that his post-impact clubhead path moves inside-left after impact - as long as the clubhead path at impact faces the target.

Yes, but the only way the path will be square to the target (we'll say in the range of -1 to +1*) while hitting down with an irons, the golfer has to swing left to some degree. If they 'release the clubhead down the line', the path will be out to the right unless their attack angle is near 0.0*

Lee Trevino is not a good example of a TGM hitter who wants to hit the ball straight. Lee Trevino swung left in order to generate an out-to-in clubhead path at impact, and thereby produce a consistent pull-fade ball flight.

I've watched Trevino live hitting shots on 4 different occasions, starting in 1986. Obviously, he was past his prime at that time, although he is arguably the best golfer to have ever performed on the Champions Tour along with Hale Irwin.

The thing that got me is that Trevino would routinely hit the ball straight off the tee on the course. He could also hit slight fades, big slices and even a big draw (I never saw him attempt an outright hook). But he would hit far more straight shots than people claim.

Even still, people assert the claim that Trevino 'swung out to the right' because of his credo of 'aim left, swing right, and walk straight.' Which is ridiculous because these are the same people who think he hit a lot of big fades.



3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

You wrote-: "Yes, but the only way the path will be square to the target (we'll say in the range of -1 to +1*) while hitting down with an irons, the golfer has to swing left to some degree. If they 'release the clubhead down the line', the path will be out to the right unless their attack angle is near 0.0*"

I think that you may not understand my viewpoint.

Look again at that photo - note that the green clubhead path is identical to the regular (blue) clubhead path between the 3rd parallel and low point. That means that the clubhead is following the same path between impact and low point - and it is obviously moving slightly outwards if the golfer is hitting down on the ball (negative clubhead attack angle). Therefore, to get the clubhead to face the target at impact when hitting down, the golfer needs to move the HSP, and therefore the entire pre-impact clubhead path leftwards by a few degrees. However, he doesn't have to move the post-impact clubhead path leftwards! He can still use a CF release, when shifting his HSP leftwards by a few degrees, and hit the ball straight - as long as his "true" clubhead path at impact and his clubface orientation at impact both face the target.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

I think we misunderstand something.

One can 'swing left' and still have a CF Release. Mickelson does it all of the time. I would suggest that most TGM defined 'hitters' use a CF release if they are going to have a frozen right wrist. But I don't believe that 'swinging left' and a CP release are mutually exclusive.

I think the CP release does a lot of good things for golfers who can execute it as well as swinging left, even if you use a CF release. A lot of it depends on what you are trying to do.




3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack,

Phew!

Unfortunately, I find your last post totally incomprehensible. You seem to be talking about a CP and a CF release in the same sentence.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

Basically, you can swing left with a CF release.



3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

I no longer understand what you mean by "swinging left". I thought that you used the term "swinging left" to describe the motion needed to keep the club on the inclined plane post-impact. In my diagram of a CF release, the clubhead is moving right-of-the-inclined plane after impact. In that sense, a CF release is not compatible with "swinging left". However, a CF release is compatible with the idea of shifting the entire inclined plane (between the 3rd parallel and low point) in a leftwards-direction.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

We swing on an inclined plane. In order to square up the path coming into impact, provided we have a downward attack angle, we have have the bottom arc of the swing going leftward in order to have a path that is pretty much square to the target.

A CP release is basically having the upper part of the arms up against the body past impact. The CF release sees the upper arms off the body past impact.

The ball doesn't react to whether the arms are on the body (CP Release) or off the body (CF Release). It just reacts to what the clubhead and face are doing at impact.

One can use the CF Release and still swing left. Happens all of the time on Tour. Phil Mickelson is a great example.

But, if you want a square path at impact and you are hitting downward, the objective laws of physics and geometry have us 'swinging left'. We just cannot avoid that.

The reason why some may prefer the CP release is that it's a very body pivot driven swing. I firmly believe that if one can master the CP release, they can much more easily control the path, face and low point on a consistent basis and that's why most of the truly great ballstrikers had a CP Release. They were able to control those facets because they had that CP Release.

The CF Release *typically* gets the path out to the right a bit. Ricky Fowler is a great example. However, since you're using your arms much more and less of your body pivot, I believe the CF release requires a bit more timing.

The good part of the CF release IMO is that with today's modern, oversized titanium drivers...one can now very easily have an upward attack angle with the driver and hit the driver quite well and long. I have persimmon drivers and I would not advice trying to hit up on those drivers because the chance of hitting a pop up is pretty high.

So that's why it doesn't surprised me that Fowler is a good driver of the golf ball. If we were still using persimmon, I think he may not even be on the PGA Tour. But, when the low point becomes a bigger factor in shots like the irons, he's not nearly as good with them as he is with the driver. In fact, his struggles on the final day at the Memorial were due to bad iron shots and when he laid up in Arizona earlier in the year, he missed what is by Tour standards a pretty easy wedge shot into the green.

But, the ball doesn't actually care if you're CF'ing it or CP'ing it. But you simply cannot swing on an inclined plane, hit downward on the ball, and swing rightward, but still have a path that is square to the target. Physics won't allow it.





3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

Thanks for replying.

I still cannot grasp your viewpoint.

When you look at my photo showing a green clubhead path - that only differs from the blue clubhead path after impact - what do you label that clubhead path pattern?

Secondly, using your definition of a CP and CF release (which relates to the "connection" of the upper arms to the body, and which doesn't mention the motion of the clubhead) - do you accept that it is possible to create that green clubhead path with an arm motion that is either on the body or off the body?

Finally, you wrote-: "We swing on an inclined plane. In order to square up the path coming into impact, provided we have a downward attack angle, we have have the bottom arc of the swing going leftward in order to have a path that is pretty much square to the target."

When your refer to the "bottom arc", I presume that you are talking about the pre-low point section of the clubhead arc. I agree that it must be shifted leftwards to hit the ball straight when hitting down on the ball. However, do you agree that the clubhead path can look like the green clubhead path or the blue clubhead path under those conditions of a leftward-shifted pre-impact clubhead path?

Jeff.

[kamandi]

Just a question; unless you're intentionally manipulating your swing, or holding off your pivot from finishing, isn't swinging left the most natural outcome for hitting too?

edit: oops, posted this after Richie posted his answer.

[Richie3Jack]

Part of the issue with your diagram Jeff is that it’s hardly scientific. So we truly do not know what the clubhead would *exactly* be doing in that diagram.

I am also curious if you are mixing up ABS’ definition of ‘swinging left’ with my definition of ‘swinging left.’

My definition of ‘swinging left’ is anytime the clubhead’s HSP is left of the target. ABS defines it as when the upper arms are connected to the body past impact, which is basically darome’s version of the ‘CP Release.’

I think one can CP or CF release the club and swing left. I think one can also CP or CF release the club and swing right of the target.

But if you want a square path on a shot that is struck with a downward attack angle, you have to swing left (have a HSP going leftward).

The way I think a golfer can ‘swing left’ or ‘swing right’ using either a CP or a CF release can be done by where the body/stance is aligned at address. I believe Hogan figured it out, on a very basic level, that the only way he could hit a driver relatively straight and not slice it was with a closed stance. And Hogan was a golfer that basically did everything he could to not hit a hook, form the grip, cupping of the wrist, his equipment, etc…yet he played with a very closed stance with the driver and his longer clubs.

Manzella ‘swings left’ on his swing and does it with a CF release. You’ll also notice in his old swings versus now, that his old swings were on the elbow plane in the downswing. Now he’s on the TSP plane in the downswing. Mickelson also ‘swings left’ and uses a CF release. He is also on the TSP.

I think if one wants to swing left with a CF release, they’ll probably need to have a more upright downswing plane. The downswing plane is a factor in squaring up the path, just like attack angle and HSP are factors. The more upright the downswing plane, the less left one has to swing to square up the path. I think the CF release is more limited in how far left a golfer can swing. Thus, I think the CF release is better coming down on the TSP than the elbow plane if you want to hit it dead straight because with the more upright downswing plane, you don’t have to swing as far left as you would if you were on the flatter elbow plane.

I’ve watched a lot of golfers who try to get into SliceFixer’s 9-3 drill of going ‘low and left’ with the hands and put it up on YouTube and struggle heavily. SliceFixer is basically teaching a CP release. The golfers who are struggling with the 9-3 drill are coming down on the more upright TSP, thus when the release the hands ‘low and left’ they wind up over-doing it (or as you may call it, ‘get off plane’) and basically come over the top. For them to do the SliceFixer swing, they need to come down on the flatter elbow plane.

I can see why Manzella likes the more upright downswing plane because it takes a lot of work and dedication to CP release the club. I don’t think it takes a super amount of flexibility, but a lot of golfers have a natural tendency to do it, particularly if they have done it their entire golfing life. So for an instructor like Manzella, the more upright downswing plane allows for the golfer to swing less to the left and giving them a better chance to square up the path. And they can do it with their natural CF release.





3JACK