CP versus CF release

[imperfectgolfer]

Where do these terms originate?

Who was the first person to use those terms, and how are those terms precisely defined?

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Kevin,

You wrote-:"CF = is more of the slinger / down the line/ hand and arms turn over / toe down / forced release (VJ / Phil / Els) = Swinging
CP = is a body release by pulling the butt of the shaft left and letting the centripital force square the head up (Hogan / Toms/ new Tiger) = Hitting."

That statement implies that CF = Swinging and CP = Hitting.

However, that cannot be true because Hogan, Toms and Woods are swingers, and not TGM hitters.

Also, in that photo of Snead, he is "swinging left" but Snead was a swinger.

You also quoted " CF means attacking from the inside (pushes/draws). CP means attacking from the outside (pulls/cuts)."

That doesn't make sense. A good golfer, whether he uses a CF release action or a CP release action must always have an in-to-square-to-in swing. A good golfer doesn't swing out-to-in, which is an OTT move. Swinging OTT cannot be the same thing as a CP swing.

You also wrote-: "Let me provide an example. You are in your car and there is coffee in the seat next to you. You're driving along and all of a sudden you need to make a sharp turn. The car in accelerating towards the center of rotation created when you turned. BUT the coffee is going to react to INERTIA. The coffee was moving in a straight line until you turned, but when you turned, the coffee still wants to continue on that line, so it gets pulled outward (away from the axis of rotation towards which the car accelerates) because of inertia, which wants to keep the coffee going in a straight line. This illusion is CF, the outward pull!!!! It is seen in all circular motions."

Its not an illusion that an orbiting body will move off at a tangent to a circle if the CP force suddenly disappears. So, "some force" was ensuring that the orbiting body travels in a circle, rather than traveling directly towards the center (under the influence of a CP force), and that counteracting force that allows the orbiting body to constantly travel in a circle is a CF force. The body orbits in a circle because the two forces are balanced. If the forces were not balanced the orbiting path would be a "spiral towards the center" - like a moth circling closer-and-closer to a lighted candle.

You also wrote-: "In a CP swing, the greater rotation of the body keeps the circle going."

I think that's wrong. It's actually the fact that the grip end of the club is being pulled along a circular path (inside-left after impact) that results in a CP style swing, and there is no reason why a swinger cannot accomplish that goal.

Jeff.

p.s. Please remind me what's P5, P6 etc.

[Richie3Jack]

Feb 6, 2010 11:17:03 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

However, that cannot be true because Hogan, Toms and Woods are swingers, and not TGM hitters.

Woods uses a CF Release. Or at least in this sequence he is.



I think that helps explain his particular issues with the driver. Trackman data has shown that he has a -3* attack angle with the driver. But he clearly is using a CF release with the driver so the plane line is out to the right. That would result in a draw, unless his clubface is wide open and then he would hit the block right...which is his usual bad driver shot.

That doesn't make sense. A good golfer, whether he uses a CF release action or a CP release action must always have an in-to-square-to-in swing. A good golfer doesn't swing out-to-in, which is an OTT move. Swinging OTT cannot be the same thing as a CP swing.

I agree. Usually CP bends the plane line more left and CF gets the plane line going more to the right. But they still hit the inside of the ball.

Hogan comes down on the elbow plane and then uses a CP release, he certainly is not coming from the outside.

p.s. Please remind me what's P5, P6 etc.

P1 = Address
P2 = Shaft parallel to the ground on backswing
P3 = Left Arm parallel to the ground on backswing
P4 = Top of swing
P5 = Left Arm parallel to the ground on downswing
P6 = Shaft parallel to the ground on downswing.
P7 = Impact
P8 = Shaft parallel to the groun on follow thru.
P9 = Finish


In Lag Erickson's ABS terms:

P1 = Shaft parallel to ground on backswing
P2 = Top of Swing
P3 = Shaft parallel to ground on downswing
P4 = Shaft parallel to ground on follow tru
P5V = Shaft Directly Vertical to Ground in follow thru (almost at the finish)





3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

Thanks for the definitions.

You wrote-: " But he clearly is using a CF release with the driver so the plane line is out to the right."

I see the situation differently. I think that TW swings "on-plane" in the followthrough.

Here is a good view of his driver swing that shows how he keeps the clubshaft on plane during the followthrough. His plane is directed at the target and not to the right, and he is tracing a SPL in the followthrough.



I do not regard that as a CF swing. I would imagine that a CF swing is a swing that is off-plane, where the clubshaft is swinging to the right-of-the-inclined plane. However, I may be wrong because I have never seen a CP/CF swing precisely defined.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

One thing I see as CF vs. CP is the 'upper arms' are supposed to be 'pinned' up against the chest in a CP release whereas in the CF release the upper arms are not pinned. Tiger's upper arms are clearly not pinned up against his chest as he gets past impact.



3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

I can understand the left arm been pinned to the chest in a CP swing, and less so in a CF swing.

I still want to know what's the precise definition of a CP/CF swing and whether they are both "on-plane" swings (where the clubhead and PP#3 traces a SPL between the 3rd and 4th parallels).

Jeff.

[danadahlquist]

Feb 6, 2010 20:37:46 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

3jack

I can understand the left arm been pinned to the chest in a CP swing, and less so in a CF swing.

I still want to know what's the precise definition of a CP/CF swing and whether they are both "on-plane" swings (where the clubhead and PP#3 traces a SPL between the 3rd and 4th parallels).

Jeff.

Ask Mac It would take too long. Its like a three page check list I would have to write. Yes major chnages to pp#3

[TeddyIrons]

For me a CP release would be where the hands do not distance themselves from the body post impact - they stay the same distance from the body as at impact, until at least the first parallel after impact (P4 in ABS terms). In Tiger Woods swing sequence above, it looks fairly clear to me that the hands distance themselves from the body. Also, in a CP release, you do not get both arms straight post impact as in image 2 of Tiger. With a CP release, the right arm would straighten after P4, and the left arm would start to bend due to the swinging left.

[gmbtempe]

Feb 27, 2010 10:27:47 GMT -5 TeddyIrons said:

For me a CP release would be where the hands do not distance themselves from the body post impact - they stay the same distance from the body as at impact, until at least the first parallel after impact (P4 in ABS terms). In Tiger Woods swing sequence above, it looks fairly clear to me that the hands distance themselves from the body. Also, in a CP release, you do not get both arms straight post impact as in image 2 of Tiger. With a CP release, the right arm would straighten after P4, and the left arm would start to bend due to the swinging left.

This is pretty good descriptions for what I feel, the the arms are bending quicker than the CF release, ideally you save right arm on the down swing and then the left arm bends quickly and the arms straight position does not happen like the CF release.

Seems like when I got the CP release going timing is less important. As Trevino said "its like the face is looking at the target longer". Just a statement but a pretty good one.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dana,

You wrote-: "Ask Mac It would take too long. Its like a three page check list I would have to write. Yes major changes to pp#3."

The purpose of this forum is to share golf instructional opinions/insights. It is a pity that you will not take the time to contribute to this topic-under-discussion with a detailed explanatory post.

I would also be interested in your "opinion" (if you are willing to express it in detail) regarding all the other S&T-related thread topics.

Jeff.

[danadahlquist]

I just dont have the time to write it out. Ill just say they all work. Too many examples of players doing both on the big stage doing all actions.

[Richie3Jack]

Welcome aboard, Dana.




3JACK

[danadahlquist]

Thanks Buddy