Swinging and clubhead lag

[imperfectgolfer]

In a thread at LB's froum, a forum member expressed the following opinion.

"the Hogan pics are a great example of the hips 'dragging' the power package into the delivery position.

the hands/left arm are not 'pulling', the hips are pulling.

The feel is exactly like dragging a wet mop.

It has been said many times, but it is a critical feel for a swinger's start down.

drag the wet mop

don't 'pull' the arms

the arms are pulled, by the lower body, and once the weight is over the left leg, you can use those hips as much as you want to....

drag the wet mop...

wrap a wet towel on the clubhead, tie a bag of range balls to the clubhead, tie an elastic band or bungie cord to the clubhead, but get that feel

the entire club should feel heavy, dragged through by the pivot

It is the only way to ensure max lag pressure and a heavy impact for swinger."

Questions:

1) How do the hips pull the arms?

2) He states that "once the weight is over the left leg, you can use the hips as much as you want to ----". What would a golfer want to do with the hips at that time-point, and why?

3) Do you believe that the pivot drags the club through impact? How?

4) What is meant by a "heavy impact" from a swinger's perspective?

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Jeff,

I am fighting what he is describing in that thread (he being Bucket who I have great respect for) and what has actually been happing in my own swing.

Dragging is great for some but not so sure it was for me. In an effort to drag I left my arms up at the top and then threw the pivot forward and rotated left. At P6 (club parallel to the ground on downswing) the club was so far behind my pivot I had to stall it to allow it to catch up and then I would dump the accumulators, but by God I dragged it like described.

To answer your questions in my un-scientific feel kind of way

1. I don't believe the hips pull the arms. The hips start the sequence. If anything pulls the arms its the left shoulder. I now believe there has to be some kind of active hand and arm participation or your pivot is going to outrace your arms and hands.

2. I don't have an answer really other than to say the hips should be opening during the transition and I would imagine that most of their work is already done by that point in time when most of the weight is transferred.

3. Are we talking hitting or swinging? I am not sure a pure hitter can drag the club much at all.

4. Heavy impact to for a swinger to me is just maintaining good pressure on pp#3 produced from lag and no throwaway.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

I am only talking about swingers.

Do you have the Ben Doyle golf instructional DVD?

He describes a towel snapping process where the pivot drives the club into impact in a "drag the mop" manner. I can also identify that pattern in his swing - where he maintains lag until his hands pass an imaginary line between his eyes and the ball, and then he releases using a pelvic rotation "snap the whip" technique.

Lynn Blake/VJ Trolio also demonstrate this technique for chip shots (using the pivot to release PA#4). However, they do not really use this technique for full golf shots.

Most golfers use a a left arm swinger's pivot action and a random release and the club is released in the mid-downswing - via a passive release of PA#2 (according to the principles of the endless belt concept). In that type of swing, the pelvic pivot motion only starts the kinetic sequence at the start of the downswing, and there is no "heavy hit" phenomenon.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

I don't have his video, did not know one existed, I have seen his teaching video at Lynn's site, there is a separate video?

The towel snapping process makes sense with me, but you better have the hands in the correct position when you do that snap but in concept yea I like that. I would also say this sound similar to the pivot thrusting that has been described to me in other books/threads.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

You can buy the Ben Doyle DVD here.

www.bendoylegolf.com/products.htm

I am biased against Ben Doyle's teaching approach, so I will not recommend that any golfer spend $100 on his two hour DVD.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Feb 8, 2010 11:37:53 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Greg,

You can buy the Ben Doyle DVD here.

www.bendoylegolf.com/products.htm

I am biased against Ben Doyle's teaching approach, so I will not recommend that any golfer spend $100 on his two hour DVD.

Jeff.

where is the review paper ;D

[Richie3Jack]

Feb 8, 2010 1:29:18 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

1) How do the hips pull the arms?

I don't think they really do. When I was taught a swinging procedure by a GSED in college, I was told to pull the left arm straight down ala the bell ringing method. I don't think that is the way to go either. I think if you're using the TGM swinging procedure you probably want to pivot the hips and then pull the arms a bit. I was just experimenting with it and the arms have to pull down to some degree.

In essence, I think it's a 'feel isn't real' situation.

2) He states that "once the weight is over the left leg, you can use the hips as much as you want to ----". What would a golfer want to do with the hips at that time-point, and why?

I'm not sure what he's getting at. I do believe in Lag Erickson's thoughts of the post impact pivot.

3) Do you believe that the pivot drags the club through impact? How?

No, I believe there is some hitting with the right hand. It's more of a rotation of the right hand/wrist. But I don't believe that the pivot alone powers the club thru impact.

4) What is meant by a "heavy impact" from a swinger's perspective?

Just my guess, but probably along the lines of a 'heavy hit.' Lots of compression, big divot.

Ben Doyle's swing is along those lines.





3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

What is Erickson's thinking re: post-impact pivot?

You wrote-: " I believe there is some hitting with the right hand." How do you reconcile that assertion with Homer's definition of a swinger's action - release of PA#4:2:3 - none of which involve a right hand hit?

How can one have a "heavy hit" if the club is being pulled into impact (swinger's action)?

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

I don't agree with Homer's assertion that there is no right arm or right hand in the swinging procedure because I don't believe anybody is a 'true hitter' or a 'true swinger.'

I think a golfer like Hogan or Peter Thomson more or less 'un-bends' the right wrist at impact. There's still some bend come impact, but it's noticeably less bend at impact.



I believe the wrist that this point can only bend back at about 8*. But at impact the right wrist bend isn't the same.





3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

Of course!

A golfer, like Hogan, has less right wrist bend at impact - depending on i) ball position and ii) hand position at impact; and therefore the degree of forward shaft lean at impact.

However, that impact position doesn't imply an active right hand motion. The right wrist is not necessarily less dorsiflexed because of any active right hand motion. The right hand has to keep up with the grip end of the clubshaft, which is being centrifugally released (passive release of PA#2).

Jeff.

[TeddyIrons]

I'm not sure if this is a "feel is not real" thing for me, but the less I move my arms through the impact area (as if they were just spokes of a wheel), then the more I feel that my hips are the driving power package. This is especially true if on the elbow plane. My goal is not to clear the hips, but to fire them.

[gmbtempe]

Feb 10, 2010 7:23:12 GMT -5 TeddyIrons said:

I'm not sure if this is a "feel is not real" thing for me, but the less I move my arms through the impact area (as if they were just spokes of a wheel), then the more I feel that my hips are the driving power package. This is especially true if on the elbow plane. My goal is not to clear the hips, but to fire them.

I have to agree this is my feeling right now as well, the spokes on a wheel moving in unison with the pivot.