Width and arms infront

[jonnygrouville]

Okay. I need to apologise again as this is probably going to be a quite long-winded, but hopefully coherent, post. This is a combination of my current thoughts and queries regarding the swing. If anyone can spare the time to read, consider and provide any comments on whether my thinking is right, wrong, not even close, I would appreciate it.

My first queries are regarding width. What is width? I thought I knew, but I am not sure any more. As examples, consider Davis Love III’s swing when it was a fair bit longer than today:

www.lagpressure.com/lagpressure/davis.jpg

And JJ Henry:

www.golfdigest.com/images/instruction/2007/09/inil01_jjhenry.jpg

At the top, both have full shoulder turns, Davis having the club slightly past parallel, but who has the wider swing?

Per the definition Butch Harmon uses, JJ does. As Davis’ left arm is pretty much vertical, there is practically no horizontal distance between his hands and head.

But look halfway back. With barely any wrist set in the picture before the top of backswing position, the arc of Davis’ clubhead is about six feet wide! Where does this width go? And does it matter?

To me, if you removed the pivot from both backswing positions, Davis would have more arm-swing. Does this make sense? If you left their arms where they were relative to the body, but returned their bodies to impact alignment, JJ’s arms would be more infront of him.

Some people talk of the backswing only being eighteen inches long as this is the distance the hands move ‘on their own’. JJ would be closer to this than Davis whose arms have swung further.

My current thinking is that JJ’s position is stronger from an amateur point of view. The extra arm swing Davis has during the backswing will have to be put back in during the downswing. JJ’s elbow is more infront of his body and seems more co-ordinated with his pivot. To me, this would be some better for an amateur to strive for as it should lead to a stronger and more consistent impact. Does this seem right?

In one of his videos, Shaun Clements makes reference to a concept Lee Trevino used of having a plank of wood on each shoulder. His feeling (whether he did or not) was to keep the club working up and down within the confines of these planks, essentially keeping his arms ‘in front’ of his body.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMXTGYnYgcA

Is this something worthwhile trying to achieve to improve consistency?

If you have made it this far, thank you. Before I compound any confusion by adding the analysis of my own swing and what I think is wrong, any comments would be greatly appreciated.

[gmbtempe]

I think for most of that swing Davis had a wider swing radius but those last frames where wasted motion, I think even Davis knew this and I believe he tried to shorten his swing from early on in his career. I agree with you JJ's position is much better from a length standpoint. I don't have the DTL look of JJ but one thing I do really like about Davis' swing is his hands are high and not getting stuck to far behind his head.

I have watched the Shawn Clement video many times and agree with what he is saying that if the swing gets behind hind you, as I mentioned above, then you are going to have wasted motion. I am sure people could cite this pro or that pro and they have no problem being in such a position but I almost hate that for the amateur, Tiger Woods is a horrible model to use for comparative motion with 99.9% of golfers. I think thats why Clement's stuff works so well for many, its conducive to the athleticism most have.

I would like to talk about swing arc and how its mostly misunderstood by golfers. When you see these tips to make a big arc to create power you start to see all kinds of bad habits develop on the range. I have to look no farther than my own swing. In order to create these large arcs I would increase the swing radius on the way back by moving my head off the ball, sometimes as much as 6". Yes I had a bigger radius but it lead to a sea of compensations that I could not recover from.

Gary Edwin has some great stuff on radius, I have a picture on my home computer I can post but he states that the radius never increases from setup (he advocates setting up in impact position), that the distance from left shoulder, to left hand, to club head is teh same at impact as it is at all points in the swing. It makes a lot of sense and since using that in mind my head no longer moves around and I am in much better position to make a solid fundamental swing.

[imperfectgolfer]

Many golfers don't understand that one cannot really create width in the backswing - other than the amount needed to keep the left arm straight via extensor action (presuming that there is no swaying of the upper torso to the right). The left arm is a checkrein that determines the width of the swing. One cannot pull the left arm straighter than straight.

Davis Love has full extension of the left arm in the mid-backswing.

Golfers who use the one-piece takeaway and a delayed left wrist cock "appear" to have more width in the backswing.



Note that Goosen, Glover and Stricker have a delayed left wrist cock and delayed right elbow bending. That gives them the "appearance" of having a wider-than-normal width in their backswing. However, that's not true because one cannot pull the left arm straighter than straight. Glover in image 2 has slightly greater width because he is allowing his upper torso to sway to the right.

It doesn't matter what width one has in the mid-backswing because one has to assemble the power package at the end of the backswing according to human biomechanics, and golfers who "appear" to have varying backswing width - due to the timing of the left wrist cock and the timing of right elbow bending - still assemble their power package in the same way at the end of the backswing.

Shawn Clement has an atypical backswing because he has a limited backswing action - his hands never get further back than his right shoulder - compared to Tiger Woods and Adam Scott who get their hands behind their right shoulder.



Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Feb 8, 2010 10:44:58 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Shawn Clement has an atypical backswing because he has a limited backswing action - his hands never get further back than his right shoulder - compared to Tiger Woods and Adam Scott who get their hands behind their right shoulder.


Jeff.

Perfect cap to what I was talking about, who has the flexibility of Adam Scott and Tiger Woods, or even Davis Love. Maybe many of us are to long in our backswings?

Maybe Boo Weekly is a better model, no?

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

Gary Edwin's idea of getting one's impact alignments set at address is a good idea for golfers who use the right forearm takeaway and a rightwards-centralized backswing swing action - like Stuart Appleby. I prefer that approach rather than the one-piece takeaway approach.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Feb 8, 2010 10:50:54 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Greg,

Gary Edwin's idea of getting one's impact alignments set at address is a good idea for golfers who use the right forearm takeaway and a rightwards-centralized backswing swing action - like Stuart Appleby. I prefer that approach rather than the one-piece takeaway approach.

Jeff.

Since going to a RFT motion, and I am a little bit of hybrid my backswing geometry is much better. No more head bobbing left and up, less moving parts.

I am more out and up and then high arms like Love but I think this makes it easier than say inside and loop over into the slot as McLean described (per your review paper).

I understand that its all about impact and if you are getting the right alignments then there is no reason to fool with your backswing but this additional width I was adding was only killing my swing consistency.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

Boo Weekely is a good example of a golfer who has a limited shoulder turn in the backswing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5yrgKetCak

He uses the right forearm takeaway. It "appears" that he has less width in his backswing - compared to Strciker and Goosen - but that's not exactly true. His left arm is straight. It "appears" less wide because i) he has a 90 degree left wrist cock by the time his left arm gets parallel to the ground and ii) his left arm moves inside faster than many golfers who use an one-piece takeaway.

Jeff.

[jonnygrouville]

Great stuff again. Thank you for the time taken in responding. Oddly enough, a couple of the points raised have pre-empted some of the other queries I have and touched on some of my favourite subjects.

Firstly, the ‘one-piece takeaway’. Everyone knows the script, but I always thought something was a bit odd. From the end of the takeaway, where is the switch that has to be flipped to start the wrist action? You’ve done nothing with your hands so far and they are now expected to leap magically into action. You read in the textbooks ‘then the right arm folds naturally infront of the body’. Mine doesn’t!

I am clearly not as flexible as those guys, but I am in a position much more like Love III. Add a slightly inside handpath and a bowed left wrist and I’m not really in great shape eh? This is where I have been thinking about keeping the club between Trevino’s planks – to develop some better right arm action and maintain some cup in left wrist.

Everyone loves ‘width’ though. I get a lot of compliments about my swing. Normally from people just after they have beaten me. I would rather have a ‘tidier’ right elbow and a more consistently functioning golf swing.

This brings me on to one of my least favourite fixes in golf, tucking a headcover under your right arm to stop it ‘flying’ or getting away from the body. In my opinion, all this does is tell you whether you are doing it or not – it only addresses the symptom, not the root cause of why the arm is getting away from your side. Tell me something to do that will keep my arm in by my right side. Then I will practice THAT with a headcover under my arm to see if I am doing THAT correctly.

Likewise the ‘fixes’ for a bowed left wrist at the top are generally along the lines of ‘just keep a bit more cup in your left wrist on the way back’. Brilliant! Why didn’t I think of that? You must be a professional or something. I digress.

I’m glad extensor action has been mentioned as I have been doing a fair bit of reading about this. To get the club working up more and keeping it between the planks, it first feels like I have to push the club down hard with the heelpad of my left hand and I can then feel a lot more pressure between the top of my left thumb and my right lifeline at the top.

Likewise the right forearm takeaway concept. I have enjoyed Richie’s videos on the subject and would love to hear more. I don’t think I have to worry about my pivot. It stalls on the way through, but I think that is because of the mess the club is in at the top. Looking at where Appleby’s right arm is at the top, you feel like he can go at it like a train from there.

For me, Appleby’s swing is a better target for the amateur than Davis Love III or Adam Scott. I think you can make a powerful swing with a full wrist cock and shoulder turn and an efficient and consistent swing by reducing the distance the hands move independent of the pivot.

[johngrahamgolf]

I've always understood width as the distance between the sternum and the butt of the grip. I agree that the there's only one left arm straight but not all left arms are the same length. Anyone with a longer arm will have more width.

Does that make it better? I don't see how. Can it possibly go faster assuming a good pivot? It should. You can't change your genetics so i wouldn't worry about it.

There's also width in the downswing. Almost everybody considers the clubhead when talking about width in the downswing. Then there's the group that talks about the width of the impact zone. Flatter swings having wider bottoms than upright swings.

There are many ways to swing a club and there's nothing wrong with arms in front or arms behind the body(they're aren't really behind the body but that's the jargon). Each one has certain things that need to happen to get back to the ball.

[imperfectgolfer]

You wrote-: "This brings me on to one of my least favourite fixes in golf, tucking a headcover under your right arm to stop it ‘flying’ or getting away from the body. In my opinion, all this does is tell you whether you are doing it or not – it only addresses the symptom, not the root cause of why the arm is getting away from your side. Tell me something to do that will keep my arm in by my right side."

The idea of keeping a headcover in the right armpit to stop your right arm from abducting away from the torso is not recommended! The right arm must abduct slightly - when applying extensor action to keep the left arm straight. The degree of right arm abduction depends on the amount of right torso leaning-to-the-right during the mid-backswing => the more the left shoulder moves to the right during the mid-backswing, then the greater the distance the hands move to the right (away from the target) and therefore, the more the right arm has to abduct away from the torso to maintain a constant level of extensor action.



Note that Glover (image 2) abducts his right upper arm more than Stricker/Goosen - because he has more rightwards slant of his upper torso => left shoulder has moved more to the right.

In a flexible golfer who can get a full shoulder turn (90+ degrees ), when the right elbow bends it folds under the hands so that the right elbow points downwards. The right elbow will only fly (point backwards) in a flexible golfer if the left arm angle relative to the ground is steeper.



Tiger Woods/Adam Scott - right elbow points groundwards.



Jim Furyk - right elbow points backwards (flying) because the left arm angle is steeper.

You wrote-: "Likewise the ‘fixes’ for a bowed left wrist at the top are generally along the lines of ‘just keep a bit more cup in your left wrist on the way back’. Brilliant! Why didn’t I think of that? You must be a professional or something."

The left wrist will not usually bow if you keep the left arm flying wedge intact throughout the backswing by using the right forearm takeaway. I described the right forearm takeaway in detail in this review paper.

perfectgolfswingreview.net/arm.htm

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

John - you wrote-: "I've always understood width as the distance between the sternum and the butt of the grip".

I think that it is best to measure backswing width as the distance between the hands and an imaginary line (vertically in-line with the outer border of the left foot) - because it then also includes the degree of torso sway/tilt to the right as part of the backswing width equation.

Jeff.

[jonnygrouville]

Thanks again guys. Slowly clarifying these concepts and clearing the fog.

Jeff - I regularly refer back to your papers and will be doing so again for the right forearm takeaway. Will definitely be having a look at the relative orientation of the wrists and maintainence of those flying wedges.

Likewise, excellent comments on the extensor action. Will be re-reading on this as well.