Post by cloran on Dec 15, 2010 21:52:55 GMT -5
I came across the following thread on another forum. I found it pretty interesting. I thought Hogan played his irons 5* or 6* flat, and then that was "confirmed" when I joined with ABS through JE's comments...
... gotta' love the internet...
... I'm not sure what to believe now, lol.
Link:
www.planetruthgolf.com/Forums/tabid/77/aff/9/aft/27679/afv/topic/Default.aspx
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote from – John Erickson (cloran edit: not posted by JE)
Tom Wishon who is a world renowned club designer, was in the backroom at the Hogan factory and had access to the "Hogan sanctorum" and took close note of Hogan's clubs.
Wishon said Hogan's various iron sets throughout his playing career were set up with 2 inch tipped X shafts.
Tom told us that in conversations with Gene Sheely (Ben's designer) that he developed his swing around a feel that had no room for feeling any shaft flex in the swing. Hogan hated feeling the shaft bending… therefore XX STIFF. He used the tipped X's even into his mid 70's when he would on occasion go out for a hit.
He had a razor sharp leading edge grind, and the irons were grinded or scooped to sit 5 degrees open. This would be consistent with other accounts of Hogan having a rib in his grips at 5 O Clock. Hogan played and swung persimmon till the day he died, and the persimmons were bored out flat. Tom said his gear was about 8 degrees flat.
Wishon also noted that his irons were very heavy, in both swing weight and dead or overall weight.
Jeff Martin
--
05-20-2010 06:14 PM
8 degrees flat doesn't sound right, there must be a mistake here. Jody Vasquez claims to have measured Hogan's equipment back in the '60's, and the irons were, as I recall, maybe 2* flat and 1/4 inch short, effectively 2.5* flat.
Brian Manzella in recent years visited Shady Oaks, where a friend of his works, and was able to sole an iron or two from Hogan's bag that is still stored there: he reported that they were "a couple of degrees flat". A Titleist driver today has a 59* lie angle, and their wedges are 64*, a 5* spread. Is John Erickson/Tom Wishon saying that the lie on Hogan's sand wedge was 3 degrees flatter than a standard driver? C'mon, the clubs wouldn't work that flat; that is one reason why a club with more loft has a more upright lie.
--
05-20-2010 07:11 PM
I did my research and found what apears to be the original text from Wishon: no mention of 8* flat in the irons. Also, Wishon specifically says that the soles were not "scooped" to set 5* open. In fact, the face angles of the woods were "at least 2* shut"! I think Erickson was suffering from a "senior moment" or two in his recounting...
"Arnie,
I did get to meet and spend a decent amount of time that day with Gene Sheeley, who for decades was Mr. Hogan's personal clubmaker at the Hogan factory. Gene had a separate workshop from the rest of the factory that was sort of like the "sanctum sanctorum" and I was told that few got to venture into this workshop. So that was cool. Part of that time included being able to look at, check out and measure things on Mr. Hogan's personal playing sets that he had used over the years.
One of the things that was very interesting was that Hogan always played X flex steel shafts, tipped 2" additional for every club. Gene explained to me that he had originally done this back when he fought a hook so badly before he found his "swing secret" that the books and magazines since then have written so much about.
As he got rid of the hook and became the best ball striker on the planet, Gene said he remained with the 2" tip X shafts because he had developed the sense of feel to where he absolutely hated any shaft that he could feel bend during the swing, and especially when he released the club to impact. Even in 1987, when I think Mr Hogan was in his mid 70s and did not play very much anymore, the few times he headed out to Shady Oaks to hit balls, he still preferred hitting these X tipped 2" shafts in his clubs.
So the point is - we develop fitting parameters for shaft fitting but when a player has a very specific feel preference for the shaft, the textbook fitting techniques can get tossed out the window!
It's been more than 20 yrs so my recollection of the small details is not that good. Among the things I do remember. . .
I was shocked to see how sharp the leading edge was on his irons, especially his wedges. Any other player would hit 80% of his shots "fat", with this type of leading edge grind. they were also ground very flat both from face to back as well as from heel to toe.
I did not notice that the sole angles were "scoop" which is what they would have to be if they "sat 5 deg open".
The clubs were all quite flat in lie, also the woods bored that way. And when I say woods I mean wooden woods in his bag in 1987.
Face angles of the woods were closed, my guess at least 2* shut from what I recall. Gene said despite his old propensity to hook the ball badly, this was because of Hogan's "new swing move" .
And the clubs were HEAVY, I rememeber - both in total weight and in swingweight.
Donald Johnson
--
05-20-2010 08:42 PM
Jeffy,
That was not a typo from me and not a typo from John Erickson.
I have no way to know the real truth about Hogan’s equipment.
I will say that it also seems way too flat to me.
I do know that John has his clubs very flat. John is 6 feet tall and most of his sets have the specs as shown below (about 6 degrees flat). The chart is from John. He is also a big fan of a heavy swing weight and a very stiff shaft (X stiff tipped).
For the record, I am also 6 feet tall and I like to use standard lie angles on the driver, fairway woods, and hybrids. I do use irons between 2 to 3 degrees flat. I do play X stiff shafts on all my clubs however I never tip the shaft.
--
05-20-2010 11:09 PM
DF-
I agree it is wasn't a typo: Erickson just made it up.
I know Brian Manzella and trust him on this. Hogan's clubs at Shady Oaks were not 8 degrees flat. What he observed was entirely consistent with what Jody Vasquez and Tom Wishon wrote about Hogan's lie angle.
It is no secret that golf is full of self-professed experts who claim Hogan did this or that to promote their own theories, no matter how unlikely or unproven. Ever read Jimmy Ballard's book? That is why I was immediately skeptical. And, irony of ironies, I found what Wishon actually said on Erickson's own website! Sadly, people like Erickson are blind to their self-deceptions.
Jeff
... gotta' love the internet...
... I'm not sure what to believe now, lol.
Link:
www.planetruthgolf.com/Forums/tabid/77/aff/9/aft/27679/afv/topic/Default.aspx
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote from – John Erickson (cloran edit: not posted by JE)
Tom Wishon who is a world renowned club designer, was in the backroom at the Hogan factory and had access to the "Hogan sanctorum" and took close note of Hogan's clubs.
Wishon said Hogan's various iron sets throughout his playing career were set up with 2 inch tipped X shafts.
Tom told us that in conversations with Gene Sheely (Ben's designer) that he developed his swing around a feel that had no room for feeling any shaft flex in the swing. Hogan hated feeling the shaft bending… therefore XX STIFF. He used the tipped X's even into his mid 70's when he would on occasion go out for a hit.
He had a razor sharp leading edge grind, and the irons were grinded or scooped to sit 5 degrees open. This would be consistent with other accounts of Hogan having a rib in his grips at 5 O Clock. Hogan played and swung persimmon till the day he died, and the persimmons were bored out flat. Tom said his gear was about 8 degrees flat.
Wishon also noted that his irons were very heavy, in both swing weight and dead or overall weight.
Jeff Martin
--
05-20-2010 06:14 PM
8 degrees flat doesn't sound right, there must be a mistake here. Jody Vasquez claims to have measured Hogan's equipment back in the '60's, and the irons were, as I recall, maybe 2* flat and 1/4 inch short, effectively 2.5* flat.
Brian Manzella in recent years visited Shady Oaks, where a friend of his works, and was able to sole an iron or two from Hogan's bag that is still stored there: he reported that they were "a couple of degrees flat". A Titleist driver today has a 59* lie angle, and their wedges are 64*, a 5* spread. Is John Erickson/Tom Wishon saying that the lie on Hogan's sand wedge was 3 degrees flatter than a standard driver? C'mon, the clubs wouldn't work that flat; that is one reason why a club with more loft has a more upright lie.
--
05-20-2010 07:11 PM
I did my research and found what apears to be the original text from Wishon: no mention of 8* flat in the irons. Also, Wishon specifically says that the soles were not "scooped" to set 5* open. In fact, the face angles of the woods were "at least 2* shut"! I think Erickson was suffering from a "senior moment" or two in his recounting...
"Arnie,
I did get to meet and spend a decent amount of time that day with Gene Sheeley, who for decades was Mr. Hogan's personal clubmaker at the Hogan factory. Gene had a separate workshop from the rest of the factory that was sort of like the "sanctum sanctorum" and I was told that few got to venture into this workshop. So that was cool. Part of that time included being able to look at, check out and measure things on Mr. Hogan's personal playing sets that he had used over the years.
One of the things that was very interesting was that Hogan always played X flex steel shafts, tipped 2" additional for every club. Gene explained to me that he had originally done this back when he fought a hook so badly before he found his "swing secret" that the books and magazines since then have written so much about.
As he got rid of the hook and became the best ball striker on the planet, Gene said he remained with the 2" tip X shafts because he had developed the sense of feel to where he absolutely hated any shaft that he could feel bend during the swing, and especially when he released the club to impact. Even in 1987, when I think Mr Hogan was in his mid 70s and did not play very much anymore, the few times he headed out to Shady Oaks to hit balls, he still preferred hitting these X tipped 2" shafts in his clubs.
So the point is - we develop fitting parameters for shaft fitting but when a player has a very specific feel preference for the shaft, the textbook fitting techniques can get tossed out the window!
It's been more than 20 yrs so my recollection of the small details is not that good. Among the things I do remember. . .
I was shocked to see how sharp the leading edge was on his irons, especially his wedges. Any other player would hit 80% of his shots "fat", with this type of leading edge grind. they were also ground very flat both from face to back as well as from heel to toe.
I did not notice that the sole angles were "scoop" which is what they would have to be if they "sat 5 deg open".
The clubs were all quite flat in lie, also the woods bored that way. And when I say woods I mean wooden woods in his bag in 1987.
Face angles of the woods were closed, my guess at least 2* shut from what I recall. Gene said despite his old propensity to hook the ball badly, this was because of Hogan's "new swing move" .
And the clubs were HEAVY, I rememeber - both in total weight and in swingweight.
Donald Johnson
--
05-20-2010 08:42 PM
Jeffy,
That was not a typo from me and not a typo from John Erickson.
I have no way to know the real truth about Hogan’s equipment.
I will say that it also seems way too flat to me.
I do know that John has his clubs very flat. John is 6 feet tall and most of his sets have the specs as shown below (about 6 degrees flat). The chart is from John. He is also a big fan of a heavy swing weight and a very stiff shaft (X stiff tipped).
For the record, I am also 6 feet tall and I like to use standard lie angles on the driver, fairway woods, and hybrids. I do use irons between 2 to 3 degrees flat. I do play X stiff shafts on all my clubs however I never tip the shaft.
--
05-20-2010 11:09 PM
DF-
I agree it is wasn't a typo: Erickson just made it up.
I know Brian Manzella and trust him on this. Hogan's clubs at Shady Oaks were not 8 degrees flat. What he observed was entirely consistent with what Jody Vasquez and Tom Wishon wrote about Hogan's lie angle.
It is no secret that golf is full of self-professed experts who claim Hogan did this or that to promote their own theories, no matter how unlikely or unproven. Ever read Jimmy Ballard's book? That is why I was immediately skeptical. And, irony of ironies, I found what Wishon actually said on Erickson's own website! Sadly, people like Erickson are blind to their self-deceptions.
Jeff
