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Post by Richie3Jack on Dec 23, 2010 10:00:49 GMT -5
I remember stating that the difference between vintage and modern blades were that the vintage blades had the sweetspot up higher on the clubface and more towards the heel. That's why when one looks at Hogan's old clubs, the wear mark is on the heel. Some idiot over at Golfwrx claims that Hogan just hit 'heel cuts', but he was actually hitting it flush because that's where the sweetspot is. I remember one time absolutely flushing my 1963 Hogan IPT 4-iron on the range...took off like that MOG video that was taken down and sound liked it as well. It also left a really neat grass mark where the ball had hit. And that mark was noticeably towards the heel.
Anyway, I got called out on this over at ABS because Lag had been telling everybody that vintage clubs had a lower sweetspot.
Then I asked Tom Wishon and he completely agreed with me....because the hosels were so long back then, that moved the sweetspot up higher on the face and more towards the heel.
That's why the old lofts were weaker, to offset the higher sweetspots which would drive the ball lower.
Wishon did add the caveat that the only vintage irons that had a lower sweetspot were irons that the clubface 'height' was shorter. Lag tried to claim that it what he meant. I"m sure he has plenty of irons with that shorter clubhead height, but I don't even think those have a lower sweetspot than a modern blade like the MP-68 or the Scratch SB-1.
I get along with Lag just fine and I think his thoughts on equipment are generally very good. But I remember taking a lot of flak for that. I also remember somebody claiming that there was no way I could know about these vintage irons, which was in particular funny because they were playing Hogan Redlines after joining ABS....a set of irons that I was actually playing in 1988 when they first came out.
3JACK
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ioz
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 195
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Post by ioz on Dec 23, 2010 10:07:09 GMT -5
cloran, i seem to recall that you had a set of wilson buttonbacks right? my set has extremely weak lofts and seems to be designed to be used with a lot of forward lean. Is this also the case in your set of wilsons?
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ioz
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 195
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Post by ioz on Dec 23, 2010 10:15:53 GMT -5
richie, I remember that discussion and you're certainly correct in stating that the sweetspot moves more towards the heel with the longer hosels. The height of the sweetspot is not just defined by hosel length I think, but also by where the muscle on the back is located. I think my hogan pc5's have the sweetspot somewhere around the 3rd and 4th groove (from the bottom). Is that your experience also?
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Post by cloran on Dec 23, 2010 11:31:25 GMT -5
I HAD a set. I tried to reshaft them, got frustrated, and sold the heads. IIRC there's not a lot of offset on them, but they too had sharp leading edges... better suited for forward lean, absolutely. Here's the specs for the buttonbacks: loft lie 20.0 57 2i 23.0 58 26.0 59 30.0 60 34.0 60 38.0 61 42.0 62 46.0 62 50.0 63 pw They are 2* weaker than most modern "player" sets. They were also 1/2" shorter, 37.5" 5i. Basically, they are 2/3 of a club weaker. If you changed the number on the bottom of the 5i to a "6" you'd have a modern length, and actually be 1* stronger!! hmmmmm... winter's here, time to tinker, This past year I've also bagged a set of '60 Dynapower irons (sold), Northwestern Sandra Palmer blades (broke 3 clubs and gave heads away), '68 Wilson Bulletback (sold), '58 Hogan Sunburst (sold), Golfsmith G40 (sold), and most recently an old set of Spalding Executive irons my Grandmother gave me 20 years ago when my Grandfather passed away. Out of those sets I liked the Northwesterns the best, believe it or not. I love a true blade, small head, thin topline, little offset... here's a pic comparing the Palmers to the '58 Hogans and the '68 Bulletbacks: The Palmer is left, Hogan middle, Bulletback right. You can see now small the Northwestern irons were. Just awesome... I liked the toe on the '68s the best, as well as the darn near zero mm offset. Great set of sticks. I kinda' went off on a tangent there, sorry...
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ioz
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 195
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Post by ioz on Dec 23, 2010 18:00:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the info cloran! Why did you sell those Sunbursts? ? No regrets??
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Post by cloran on Dec 23, 2010 18:23:47 GMT -5
Thanks for the info cloran! Why did you sell those Sunbursts? ? No regrets?? Major regrets... At the time I was catching a bunch of s**t from my old lady for having too many sets of irons. I had snapped the 8i or 9i (can't remember) at the hosel during a range session and I didn't have the time or money to have them reshafted. So I sold them. I wish I still had them. I'd just hold onto them until I had enough scratch to send them to ironworks. Oh well... I've got my MP14s coming tomorrow!
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ioz
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 195
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Post by ioz on Dec 24, 2010 4:44:13 GMT -5
Major regrets... At the time I was catching a bunch of s**t from my old lady for having too many sets of irons. I had snapped the 8i or 9i (can't remember) at the hosel during a range session and I didn't have the time or money to have them reshafted. So I sold them. I wish I still had them. I'd just hold onto them until I had enough scratch to send them to ironworks. Oh well... I've got my MP14s coming tomorrow! lol, If it makes you feel any better you're not the only one getting a hard time from the mrs... I secretly bought a set of mac M85's last week... ;D from ebay. Of course I had to have them shipped to the office...
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Post by cloran on Dec 24, 2010 7:52:26 GMT -5
Major regrets... At the time I was catching a bunch of s**t from my old lady for having too many sets of irons. I had snapped the 8i or 9i (can't remember) at the hosel during a range session and I didn't have the time or money to have them reshafted. So I sold them. I wish I still had them. I'd just hold onto them until I had enough scratch to send them to ironworks. Oh well... I've got my MP14s coming tomorrow! lol, If it makes you feel any better you're not the only one getting a hard time from the mrs... I secretly bought a set of mac M85's last week... ;D from ebay. Of course I had to have them shipped to the office... You, my friend, are a genius!!! Unfortunately for me I work out of my house... secretly shipping anything to my "office" would get me killed. I sleep with one eye open as it is!
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ioz
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 195
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Post by ioz on Dec 24, 2010 8:40:14 GMT -5
Necessity is the mother of invention... we must really loves this crazy game Or else I'm pretty sure that our 'better halves' would be able to find another something to complain about in no time..
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jamo
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 142
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Post by jamo on Dec 24, 2010 9:31:29 GMT -5
I know this doesn't have to do with lie angle, but it's amazing the loading he got on those ridiculously stiff shafts.
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ioz
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 195
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Post by ioz on Dec 24, 2010 12:52:32 GMT -5
Sure is amazing! however I do think that the heavy clubheads benefits this as well. He sure could hold the flex.
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