vjsinger's Manzella Thread

[Richie3Jack]

www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13179-unhappy-customer.html

I think this is a great thread because if you had somebody who never played golf before read some forums you would swear that every teacher improves every golfer every single time. Of course, golfers know that's not the case.

Manzella and Shields did a terrific job of handling the situation. Most teachers wouldn't do that and Manzella is right, a lot of them would blame the student. And I usually do find that to be a cop-out.

I can see if the student somehow thinks that a lesson should cure them of their ills and never practices afterwards, but that's not vj's case. Some coaches will say that the student 'didn't do what I told them', but I still think that's a bit of a copout because as a coach, you need to find a way to get thru to the student that what you are teaching them is in their best interest.

From time to time I do get some questions about taking lessons and what should a golfer do to prepare for them. It's actually pretty easy IMO, just show up and listen. There's no need to make changes to your swing before the lesson as it does neither you or the instructor any good. Here's 3 things you should have coming into a lesson:

1. Ask Questions

If you don't understand something CRYSTAL CLEAR, ask questions. It's very important that you understand.

2. Video, video, video

Most lessons I get have video and those that do not are because it's something that really doesn't require video to understand or it's something that has been analyzed in the past with video and I'm being reminded of it.

The big problem I see golfers having is that they get a lesson with video and then when they get home and go on the range they wind up falling back into their old bad habits or doing what they were instructed in a poor fashion.

I had a childhood friend who I played junior and HS golf with that probably had the most raw talent of any golfer I had ever met. When he was on, he could hit the ball extremely long, compress the bejeesus out of the ball and was a great at pitch shots and generall had a pretty good short game. Once he got contacts he developed into a pretty good putter who could really get hot with the flatstick.

His problem was his swing mechanics were horrendous. But to make matters worse, he would go to extremes from one day to the next. For instance, one day he would wake up and have a backswing more upright than Furyk. Somebody would tell him that he needed to flatten out his backswing and then the very next day he would be flatter than Doug Sanders. Then he would get frustrated when you would tell him he was swinging way too flat when a day ago he was swinging way too upright.

Back then we were told that looking at video could ruin your swing, so we stayed away from it. But he's a case of a golfer that would've been perfect for video.

So when you come off a lesson, video your swing...A LOT.

3. Break down your misses

I want to figure out what my common misses and what is causing those misses.

For instance when working with John Dochety (aka Lake1926) I found my misses were:

- Thin (over-accelerated the arms)
- Fat (not enough shoulder pivot)
- Push Fade (over-accelerated the arms)
- Hook (not enough shoulder pivot)
- Toe hit (over-accelerated the arms)

So when I got on the range back home I could see the mis-hit and figure out what the problem was and eventually discover a trend.




3JACK

[cloran]

I found that thread quite interesting. I think BM played it correctly. It is VERY easy for a Pro to say it's the student's fault...

[imperfectgolfer]

VJ wrote-: "I saw Kevin twice more and we then worked on a variety of things to fix my swing, all resulting in me being more confused with what the hell I was supposed to do than before. I just felt like I was experimented on more than I had been given the right information for my swing."

I am not really surprised. When I view Brian's swing video lessons, I regard them as a composite patchwork of ideas that are supposedly designed to "correct" a swing problem eg. slice problem or hooking problem. I suspect that Brian's personal lessons follow along the same lines. I don't think that it is easy to radically improve a golf swing with a few hours of lessons and a series of golf tips - if a golfer is similar to VJ (having multiple problems eg. hitting fat shots, hitting left and hitting right). Brian often gives the impression that he can significantly "correct" a golfer's swing problems in one lesson, and that claim promotes unrealistic expectations in a golf student.

I think that if VJ has multiple swing problems, then long-term lessons are required over a period of months/years, and one cannot blame a golf instructor if significant improvement is not realized within the time frame of the first few lessons.

Jeff.

p.s. I am biased in the sense that I believe that serious golfers will greatly benefit if they maximize their knowledge of golf swing mechanics/biomechanics, which requires a great deal of private study and not lessons from a golf instructor.

[brianmanzella]

Feb 15, 2010 10:49:10 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

When I view Brian's swing video lessons, I regard them as a composite patchwork of ideas that are supposedly designed to "correct" a swing problem eg. slice problem or hooking problem. I suspect that Brian's personal lessons follow along the same lines. I don't think that it is easy to radically improve a golf swing with a few hours of lessons ...Brian often gives the impression that he can significantly "correct" a golfer's swing problems in one lesson, and that claim promotes unrealistic expectations in a golf student.

I am going to say this a nicely as I can:

You are dead wrong.

An easy example to make my point.

A guy with a slice, coming way over the top, open hip and shoulder alignment, weak grip, wide open clubface at the top, and a chicken-wing swivel, comes to take a lesson.

You teach him an orthodox grip, show him orthodox left and right wrist conditions at the top of his swing, and teach him a normal swivel.

He hits it better IMMEDIATELY and may never have any of those problems again.

This happens ALL THE TIME and has in my practice for 28 years.

BTW, VJ is hardly a hacker, missing shots all over the place. Geez.

[Richie3Jack]

Welcome aboard, Brian.

I am guessing you joined when this thread was brought to your attention. I understand your schedule is busier than anything I could imagine or want, so you may have came over here without reading the rules. That's perfectly fine and your post certainly did not break any rules. But, from time to time I like to notify members about the rules and reiterate to members what the rules and goals of this forum are.

Basically this is a forum where we seek information from experts in all fields of golf, like yourself and disagreements and debate are very much encouraged and wanted. This goes to all members, but what I ask is for opinions to be backed up with facts, somewhat sound logic and reason. Posters who resort to insults, condescending tones and really have nothing to add will get their posts removed and eventually...and I don't have a lot of patience for this...banned.

This is more of a warning to people thinking of joining the board because Brian's post is perfectly A-OK with me. I've had zero problem so far with the members following the rules and I insist on keeping it that way.

I'm very glad you joined this board, but I want to protect you and all of my members from posters that are more or less trouble makers.




3JACK

[brianmanzella]

Well,

I got a threadback to it on my site, Richie.

And to be honest, Jeff taking a shot at me didn't have ANY FACTS.

All opinion.


(3Jack: Brian, just watch the namecalling)

[imperfectgolfer]

Brian - you are entitled to your opinions, but ad hominem insults are not tolerated in this golf forum.

I realize that VJ is not a hacker. However, he personally stated that he had a problem hitting both left-and-right. To quote directly from your website's golf forum, he stated "I had the same misses due to not being able to control low point. I hit it fat, left, right, too short with the irons, too long with the irons, slice the driver, hook the driver etc. so when I say I didn't hit it any better , I mean I didn't hit it any better."

Now, you often claim that you can quickly correct a golfer's swing problem so that the golfer IMMEDIATELY hits it much better. VJ has stated that he didn't improve IMMEDIATELY (or even after a number of lessons), which contradicts your claim - with respect to VJ (who you state is not a hacker). I am not blaming you (or Kevin), because a golf instructor can only "teach" and a golfer needs to "learn" before he can expect to hit the ball better. Those two words in "quotes" are not synonymous.

You wrote-: "And to be honest, this yahoo taking a shot at me didn't have ANY FACTS.

All opinion."

That's true. I only have opinions - like you. The idea that a particular golf instructor has "objective" opinions based on "facts" is a very mootable idea.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

Feb 15, 2010 11:43:49 GMT -5 brianmanzella said:

Well,

I got a threadback to it on my site, Richie.

And to be honest, Jeff taking a shot at me didn't have ANY FACTS.

All opinion.

Every opinion doesn't have to be backed up with facts. Somewhat sound reason and logic will do.

For example, I'm a diehard Dallas Cowboys fan. Many people don't believe me, but ESPN for the most part and the local Dallas media loves to hate on the Cowboys.

I don't get upset for criticism on the Cowboys, but for the utter lack of logic or reason. There was one writer in the Dallas area who did a weekly picks column. In '07 when Dallas went 13-3, this writer predicted Dallas to lose every single week.

When he was called out on it when he was on a sports radio station, his explanation was to the effect that he always pics the home team (which was a lie).

I didn't give a crap that he doesn't like the Cowboys. I don't give a crap that he always predicted them to lose. But what I did care about was his logic was ridiculous in always picking the home team. And that wasn't true either.

I think Jeff used some logic and reason for his opinion. If every opinion had to be backed up by facts, well we wouldn't have many opinions on this board. IMO, Jeff wasn't 'always picking the home team' otherwise I would have modified or deleted his post and talked about it with him.

And please no name calling. Even something like 'yahoo' is something I don't tolerate other members being called. Now, if you want to call say Hank Haney a yahoo, unless he becomes a member here that's fine with me.





3JACK

[Richie3Jack]

I also thought the original thread on your board was a shining moment for you and Kevin..and other people I've talked to agree with me. I'd imagine that other instructors who would allow that thread to be up on their forum would be less than 5%. If we were in an opera house, you guys would deserve a standing ovation.




3JACK

[brianmanzella]

"You often claim that you can quickly correct a golfer's swing problem so that the golfer IMMEDIATELY hits it much better. VJ has stated that he didn't improve IMMEDIATELY."

This is dead wrong.

He hit it MARKEDLY BETTER in both lessons I gave him.

I only wish I had TrackMan then to show the numbers. They would have been SHOCKINGLY better in the first lesson, and just plain better in the second.

The problem I had with your post, is your COMPLETE GUESS on how I give private golf lessons.

And, BTW, it was a total whiff.

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

I agree with you that a golf forum administrator should receive a standing ovation if he tolerates criticism and a great variety of contrary golf instructional opinions in his golf forum. From that perspective, you are without a peer, because you not only tolerate contrary opinions, you actively promote open/vigorous intellectual debate to a degree not seen in any other golf forum. That's admirable, and it's a major reason why I now only post in this golf forum.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Brian

I don't dispute your claim that VJ hit it "markedly better" during your golf lesson. However, he complained that he didn't continue to consistently hit it "markedly better" after the lesson.

When I started to play golf, I had a number of lessons from a number of golf instructors. I always hit it "markedly better" during the lesson, but I eventually gave up on the idea of personal lessons because the sudden improvement waned very quickly. The causes for such a common golf instructional phenomenon could primarily reside with the golf instructor, or it could primarily reside with the golf student.

You wrote-: "The problem I had with your post, is your COMPLETE GUESS on how I give private golf lessons."

Not a "complete guess". Over the past few years, I have been contacted by a fair number of golfers (~5-10 golfers) who have previously received private lessons from you, and they have described their lessons in sufficient detail to make my personal opinion (regarding your private lessons) less than a "total whiff".

Jeff.

[brianmanzella]

Jeff,

Fair Enough.

Is this Jeff Mann?

[Richie3Jack]

yes it is.



3JACK

[brianmanzella]

Richie and Jeff.

Here is an idea.

I would like to do a talk with both of you guys about teaching, similar in production to the one I did with Damon and Kevin.

We could talk about a couple of different things, and you guys can post it up on your websites as well as mine.

You can ask me ANYTHING you want, and of course I can do the same.

Jeff and I have had some nice chats, and I think you are a bright guy as well Richie.

What do you think?

BManz