Swinging left - an alternative opinion

[imperfectgolfer]

The concept of "swinging left" has many interpretations. Some golfers think of it as keeping the clubshaft on-plane in the followthrough, while other golfers think of this phenomenon as a CP release (versus a CF release). Some golfers think of it as being the difference between swinging and hitting, and think that a swinger will always have a CF release, and will not "swing left" and that one needs to "hit" to "swing left". The following photograph promotes that idea.



The first image shows ABS-hitting - a CP release where the hands move inside-left soon after impact due to the right hand pushing the hands in an inside-left direction. The second image represents a CF release - which is associated with swinging. Why do golfers "incorrectly" believe that swinging will always result in a CF release and "swinging right" in an off-plane manner?

In a swinger's action, the right forearm/PP#3 keep the clubshaft on-plane in the late downswing. However, the right arm straightens post-impact and a swinger cannot easily use the right forearm/PP#3 to direct the clubshaft to remain on-plane in the late followthrough and early finish phase (from impact to the 4th parallel). So, how should a swinger ensure that he remains on-plane (from impact to the 4th parallel) and thereby ensure that he "swings "left"?

I have given this matter a great deal of thought lately, and I now believe that a swinger should actively incorporate a left elbow-bending action in the late followthrough/early finish phase in order to "swing left". The left elbow bending action is a mirror image of the right elbow bending action that occurs in a right forearm takeaway.

I described the right elbow's bending action in a right forearm takeaway as a "right clap hand action".



Here is an image of me performing a "right clap hand action". Note that it involves external rotation of the right humeral head within the right shoulder socket while the upper torso rotates in the backswing. While this is happening, the right elbow bends to a ~90 degree angle.

In the late followthrough/ finish phase of one's swing, a swinger needs to perform a "left clap hand action" where the left elbow bends while the left humeral head externally rotates in the left shoulder socket (while the left shoulder socket moves inside-left due to a good post-impact pivot action). This "biomechanical maneuver" will more likely ensure that a swinger has a CP-release and "swings left" after impact.

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

Feb 15, 2010 11:45:51 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Why do golfers "incorrectly" believe that swinging will always result in a CF release and "swinging right" in an off-plane manner?

I think this is a bit tricky. I think Erickson's thoughts is that he either thinks Homer got this part wrong OR the interpretation of Homer's work by instructors like Ben Doyle is wrong.

So he then came up with his own definition of 'hitting' and 'swinging.'

I think when you look at most prototypical 'swingers' out there, even on the PGA Tour, you see golfers where their upper arms 'fly off' the chest instead of being pinned to the chest and they do swing out to the right to some degree. It may be off plane, but you can have a clubpath out to the right, say 2* and still be a great ballstriker.

I don't have a problem with Lag's 'swinger' and 'hitter' terminology because it does make things a bit easier to understand. And as he has said, there's plenty of golfers who can hit it really well with what he calls a swinging (CF release) procedure, but he felt it takes a lot of hand-eye coordination and lots of practice too keep the swing going well and his 'hitting' (CP release) is something he feels is consistent and he doesn't need a lot of balls to hit to get it up and working.

I'll have to look a bit more into your option for swinging left.




3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

I don't really understand JE's hitting procedure. He seems to recommend a "hitting" procedure, despite using a takeaway swivel action and a release swivel action. I don't understand how a golfer can "hit" using those biomechanical procedures, and how "hitting" interacts with the centrifugal release of PA#2 and the natural roll-over of the left hand into impact (natural release of PA#3) - which should theoretically occur in JE's swing (following the pivot-induced release of PA#4).

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

have given this matter a great deal of thought lately, and I now believe that a swinger should actively incorporate a left elbow-bending action in the late followthrough/early finish phase in order to "swing left". The left elbow bending action is a mirror image of the right elbow bending action that occurs in a right forearm takeaway.

Jeff,

This very bending of the left arm is a critical component of my CP release as taught by my instructor Denny Alberts. Its obviously a hitting pattern (though I don't think it is in Homer's strictest ideals). Though I do realize you are talking about a swinger I thought I would just add its not an unheard of component.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

I agree! The left elbow bending is not an unknown action. In fact, it's central to the concept of the finish swivel action. However, I am now thinking that it plays a large role in allowing a swinger to more easily "swing left" after impact. I previously thought of the finish swivel action as being optional, rather than as essential. I now think that the left elbow bending action should start sooner after impact, and that it allows the hands to more easily move inside-left after impact - thus allowing the club to more easily remain on-plane between impact and the 4th parallel.

Jeff.

[TeddyIrons]

Feb 15, 2010 11:45:51 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

The first image shows ABS-hitting - a CP release where the hands move inside-left soon after impact due to the right hand pushing the hands in an inside-left direction.

I would disagree with this Jeff - in ABS I don't think it's the hands that are guiding the cut it left move, but rather the fighting of CF forces by pinning the left arm to the body and rotating hard left.

Feb 15, 2010 11:45:51 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

The second image represents a CF release - which is associated with swinging. Why do golfers "incorrectly" believe that swinging will always result in a CF release and "swinging right" in an off-plane manner?

I think the idea is that pure swinging will do this, or that if you are not fighting the CF forces, then you are bound to go above plane post impact.

Feb 15, 2010 11:45:51 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

I have given this matter a great deal of thought lately, and I now believe that a swinger should actively incorporate a left elbow-bending action in the late followthrough/early finish phase in order to "swing left". The left elbow bending action is a mirror image of the right elbow bending action that occurs in a right forearm takeaway.

I'm wondering if this is difficult to time/perfect? Why not swing left by pinning the left arm against the torso and maintaining pressure in PP#4? In addition maintaining right arm bend with the right arm also pinned close to the chest and pressure in the right arm pit.

Feb 15, 2010 11:45:51 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

In the late followthrough/ finish phase of one's swing, a swinger needs to perform a "left clap hand action" where the left elbow bends while the left humeral head externally rotates in the left shoulder socket (while the left shoulder socket moves inside-left due to a good post-impact pivot action). This "biomechanical maneuver" will more likely ensure that a swinger has a CP-release and "swings left" after impact.

In ABS, the left arm does bend quickly post impact, but is not the cause but rather the effect of what I have written above. I personally think that purposely bending the left arm is a dangerous move, but I haven't tried it so reserve judgement.

[imperfectgolfer]

Teddy

I can understand a swing approach that involves a very active pivot action through impact that allows the left arm to be pinned to the chest. Under those conditions, the turning torso will be primarily responsible for directing the hands inside-left after impact.

However, many golfers do not have the torso flexibility to pivot that well through impact. Under those constrained conditions, a TGM swinger will release PA#4 in the early phase of the downswing and there will be a certain degree of separation between the torso and the left arm. The left arm, and therefore hands, could subsequently be released off-plane to the right (what is labeled a CF release), and an active left elbow bending action post-impact could help direct the left arm/hands inside-left after impact.

By the way, in what sense is JE using a right hand hitting action through impact if it is not responsible for moving the hands/club grip inside-left post-impact?

Jeff.

[TeddyIrons]

Jeff, in ABS, both left and right hand will release PA's #2 and #3 into impact. I wouldn't say it's just the right hand, although people will tend to have a dominant hand. However, this action is not responsible for going left. If the pivot were to stall through impact, then the hands would no doubt turn over and look more flippy. So the idea is to pivot hard left so that the body stays ahead of the hands. The hands and arms will want to fly off the body during this move, so we need to fight that by packing in the arms. The essential point is that the pivot leads the swinging left movement, but the arms must not give in to CF forces. I agree with your first paragraph, and so don't understand your doubts in the 3rd.

A lot of ABS students hook the ball after starting the modules - this is because he teaches the hands hitting first. The students will often not have the pivot to support this hitting action, so the hands will flip over above plane and a hook occurs. Later he then introduces the swinging left and that is a cut move, which opposes the hooking move.

I'm still not convinced that flexibility is an issue in pivoting hard through and beyond impact. I see it more as an athletic move that needs to be learned through training.

[TeddyIrons]

Jeff,
coincidentally over at ABS there is some discussion on this. JE and some others are discussing the merits of chicken winging it to stay on plane, for those that do not have good post impact pivots. The conclusion seems to be that this is viable. Not sure if that is exactly the same as your idea or not...
Teddy

[imperfectgolfer]

Teddy

What is meant by the phrase "hands hitting first"?

1) When are they hitting?

2) How are they hitting - from a biomechanical perspective?

3)Does this hitting action supplement or partially over-ride the CF club release phenomenon (which operates according to the principle of the double pendulum swing model) or does it supplant the CF-induced release of the club (passive release of PA#2) in a drive-loading manner?

4) Does this hand hitting action occur before, concurrently with, or after the release of PA#4?

Jeff.

[TeddyIrons]

Feb 16, 2010 10:57:54 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Teddy

What is meant by the phrase "hands hitting first"?

1) When are they hitting?

2) How are they hitting - from a biomechanical perspective?

3)Does this hitting action supplement or partially over-ride the CF club release phenomenon (which operates according to the principle of the double pendulum swing model) or does it supplant the CF-induced release of the club (passive release of PA#2) in a drive-loading manner?

4) Does this hand hitting action occur before, concurrently with, or after the release of PA#4?

Jeff.

Jeff,
by "Hands hitting first" I mean it's one of the first things learned on the ABS course, in module 1.

I'll respond to the best of my ability, but I'm not JE.
1. Hitting occurs once the club passes the last parallel before impact - the hands do their thing.
2. Releasing PA #2 and #3.
3. Not sure. I believe the more you train your hands to hit, the more this hands/wrists hitting supplants the CF release - the idea is not to give in to CF forces in the hands release.
4. Ideally, PA #4 is released afterwards.

[gmbtempe]

Teddy,

I don't know if you are a TGM versed player but do you know, or anyone for that matter, what would the sequence be for releasing the accumulators in the ABS? 1,2,3,4 looking from your post?

[TeddyIrons]

gmb, yes, the sequencing would be as follows: #1 is released first, although not entirely - through transition the right arm straightens partially but not completely.

Then #2 and #3 are released together into the ball.

#4 is considered the "master accumulator" as Homer Kelley says (I believe) and is released last, while at the same time (more or less) the #1 bent arm is completely straightened. This last accumulator is held as long as possible, ideally until the first parallel after impact, or even later.

Not sure if this is clear - just ask if it isn't.

[gmbtempe]

clear as today in Phoenix!