Defining the 4th power accumulator

[imperfectgolfer]

In another thread, Teddy wrote-: "Then #2 and #3 are released together into the ball.

#4 is considered the "master accumulator" as Homer Kelley says (I believe) and is released last, while at the same time (more or less) the #1 bent arm is completely straightened. This last accumulator is held as long as possible, ideally until the first parallel after impact, or even later."

Teddy has stated that PA#4 is released last - released after PA#2 and PA#3 are released - and that it is only released after impact.

I believe that it is wrong to release PA#4 after releasing PA#2/3 and I believe that it makes no sense to release any PA after impact because the power accumulators are used to power the swing and maximise clubhead speed at impact - which means that they must be released prior to impact.

I suspect that there may be different definitions of what represents the "release of PA#4" and we cannot have a meaningful conversation/debate unless we use TGM terms in the same manner.

Many TGMers define the release of PA#4 as follows - see TGM book photo below.



PA#4 is loaded when the left arm is brought across the upper chest in the backswing - image 1. This may produce a sense of loading pressure at PP#4, but not necessarily - because it is possible to load PA#4 partially where the left upper arm doesn't press tightly against the left pectoral area of the chest wall (eg. 1/2 or 3/4 backswing).

PA#4 is deemed to be completely released when there is roughly a 90 degree angle between the chest wall and left arm and it is usually occurs by the end of the followthrough (defined as the time point when both arms are straight). So, how does one define the degree of PA#4 release? I believe that the best way to quantify the degree of PA#4 release is to measure the distance from the hands to the right shoulder. When PA#4 is released, the distance between the hands and right shoulder increases. I believe that the left arm moves mainly downwards-and-forwards to impact - along a different plane of motion than the shoulder rotation - and one therefore needs to measure the degree of release of PA#4 in its plane of motion. There is very little movement of the left arm outwards (away from the chest wall) in the downswing, and therefore it makes no sense to me to measure the degree of PA#4 release in the plane of motion of that outward vector.

If you do not agree with my definitions, feel free to state your disagreements, so that we can resolve them. If we cannot agree on the definition of TGM terms, then we cannot meaningfully discuss the golf swing using TGM terminology.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

There is very little movement of the left arm outwards (away from the chest wall) in the downswing, and therefore it makes no sense to me to measure the degree of PA#4 release in the plane of motion of that outward vector.

Very little? I think its more than very little. If you tuck that thing very close, keep it close and it works downwards, then drop the right shoulder and hip slide won't you likely get stuck, a la Tiger Woods. Doesn't that lead to below plane issues as well?

I believe Brian Manzella's whole video "Never Hook Again" talks about "the Carry" which to me talks about that right arm actually coming out a little to help get back on plane.

I do think the very upper part of the arm is tight to the shoulder but the arm to me is moving outwards on the downswing, it can't just move downwards in my mind.

[TeddyIrons]

Jeff, instead of me making a poor attempt at describing ABS's power accumulator release sequence, let's use the words of Lag himself, that were posted on the famous ISG thread:

I believe the reality of power package release sequence is that there is quite a bit of overlap going on, and it is also a reality that there can be a turn on and off… then on again situation as well..
I consider #1 to go first in my swing, meaning that it is the first to be exhausted. My right arm is bent 90 degrees at the top of my backswing and it straightens 30 degrees as I arrive at the 3rd parallel,so it is now at 120 degrees, this angle is held past impact.. it certainly releases before 2 and 3..
To complicate things I would also state that I start my downswing initially with #4, just to change the direction but then it feels very quiet until right before impact, where the left knee and hip fire quickly and ferociously!
I believe #4 overlaps all the others, of course it has to… because the pivot is in fact turning some all the way down… I just don’t believe that the power package assembly release sequence is all that cut and dry.Two and three certainly have some overlapping going on..and they also are spent into impact.. but I still have a lot of #4 left.You must realize that #4 has a far greater span of kinetic motion..

Let's use this as the basis for the discussion.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

There is definitely some movement of the left arm away from the chest wall in the downswing and that represents the out-component of the down-and-out-and-forward motion of the left arm. But it pales in magnitude to the down component.

Consider Ben Hogan's release of PA#4.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWbppUcInrs

Note how much distance the hands travel away from the right shoulder in the downswing - due to the release of PA#4. Note how little the gap between the left upper arm and the chest wall increases in magnitude during the same period of time.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Teddy

I cannot use JE's comments as a basis for discussion because I think that he is wrong.

He states-: "I consider #1 to go first in my swing, meaning that it is the first to be exhausted. My right arm is bent 90 degrees at the top of my backswing and it straightens 30 degrees as I arrive at the 3rd parallel,so it is now at 120 degrees, this angle is held past impact.. it certainly releases before 2 and 3."

Look at Ben Hogan's swing - showing the release of PA#4.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWbppUcInrs

Note that he still has roughly a 90 degree angle of the right elbow when his right elbow reaches its pitch location at the end of the mid-downswing. That means that PA#1 is still loaded. However, during this same time period (early-mid downswing), he has significantly released /unloaded PA#4.

Jeff.

[TeddyIrons]

OK Jeff but all you are saying is that Hogan and JE do not have identical swings. JE is right when he says that #1 is the first to go - I believe this is part of getting on the elbow plane and into pitch position - the fact that he has less elbow bend than Hogan could be for several reasons - e.g. differences in height. Also, looking at Hogan in that video, he still has some PA #4 left - his left arm has dropped vertically but is still across his torso horizontally and I'm sure he is still feeling pressure in PP#4, which would be a sign that it still has some left. As JE says, #4 overlaps all the others.

[cloran]

I FEEL like I'm holding onto PP4 through impact when I make a good CP release swing... but surely some has been spent. If I maximized my PP4 at the end of my backswing and held onto the entire thing through impact my left shoulder would be pointing to the noon day sun at impact... impossible.

But I FEEL like I'm holding onto that pressure point well after impact. Feel, feel, feel.

[imperfectgolfer]

Teddy,

I disagree that JE is releasing PA#1 before PA#4. His right elbow only starts to straighten in the mid-downswing, and his hands have already moved away from his right shoulder by that time-point (due to the release of PA#4).



At impact, JE has already released most of PA#4 - even though his left upper arm remains in contact with his left pectoral area.

It is true that the release of different PAs overlap considerably/variably in a golf swing.

It is also true that that the more actively a golfer pivots his torso through impact/followthrough, the more incomplete the release of PA#4 pre-impact. I do not think that there is any loss of swing power due to this incomplete (pre-impact) release of PA#4, because the left arm is still moving fast in unity with the pivoting torso. The advantage of this active pivot motion is that it allows a golfer to use a body-activated CP release rather than an arm-activated CP release (due to a finish swivel action).

However, I do not believe that saving any PA#4 and/or PA#1 for release after impact makes sense from a swing power perspective (because ball speed is determined by clubhead speed and not any "heavy hit" phenomenon), although it may give a golfer better control of his clubshaft through the impact zone.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Cloran

I believe that swing power is primarily determined by left arm speed in the late downswing. It would take a very active pivot action to allow a golfer to retain PA#4 loading throughout the downswing and still obtain a fast left arm speed in the late downswing.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_AmPuzgBXEM

In this Ben Hogan video, he starts off by pinning his arms against the side of his torso and his elbows to his hips in the beginning, but then he separates his arms from his torso so that he can swing his arms faster. I believe that a pivot-induced swinging motion is optimum, but I believe that the arms must move faster than the torso (as demonstrated by Ben Hogan) to generate maximum clubhead speed.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

hmmm, a little off subject but is it me or in between P5 and P7 Lag's head actually move back?

[cloran]

I wouldn't say "retain PA4 loading throughout the downswing" but rather "maintain the feel of PP4 post impact." Big difference.

I'm hardly an expert on TGM... calling me a novice is generous, but the idea I've been trying to capture is the feeling of pressure in my left armpit post impact. Maintaining a connection with my upper left arm. But this is for a CP release, not CF. I've always had more of a CF release and with that I feel zero PP4 post impact, and as shown in video of my swing I end up with very much a CF release.
It would be very difficult (ie impossible) to maintain PA4 in it's entirety post impact, but that's not what I'm trying to accomplish. Just maintain pressure, feeling. This lends to a more pivot driven impact and post impact position.

[cloran]

Feb 18, 2010 11:20:56 GMT -5 gmbtempe said:

hmmm, a little off subject but is it me or in between P5 and P7 Lag's head actually move back?

If you draw a line from his right instep up to the sky it will tell you (I'm at work and don't have the capability right now), but by holding a business card to the screen it doesn't seem so. It just turns counter clockwise (from face on view).

[imperfectgolfer]

Cloran

You wrote-: "I wouldn't say "retain PA4 loading throughout the downswing" but rather "maintain the feel of PP4 post impact." Big difference."

That's an important point - is there a 100% correlation between the degree of PA#4 pressure sensation and the degree of retained loading of PA#4?

I personally believe that there is a very poor correlation because the pressure sensation at PP#4 is only sensitive to the degree of movement of the left arm outwards (away from the chest wall) and not sensitive to the degree of movement of the left arm downwards-and-forwards in the direction of the ball. Secondly, the pressure sensation at PP#4 will be greater if a golfer pivots very actively through the late downswing - even if the degree of downward-and-forward movement of the left arm remains the same.

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Jeff,

I might do a little video on my camera tonight showing you some of the newer feels I am developing with my left arm and right arm from the downswing to finish, its hard to put into words.

[cloran]

I don't know if there's a 1:1 correlation, but the degree to which the pressure is maintained certainly will vary for each individual.
Everyone has a different underlying body structure. Short arms, barrell chest, tall, short, etc.

I can't help but feel the connection between my left bicept and pec, but only if I focus on maintaining the connection. The degree to which they are allowed to seperate from the chest wall may be larger than others, and yet I can still maintain the pressure.

Certainly the pressure would be higher with an active pivot pulling my left arm towards my body center; and luckily for me, that's what I'm trying to accomplish. The downward force may be the same as others, the extension away from the chest may be the same as others; but the pulling of the pivot retains the pressure... leading (for me anyway) to very much a CP release. Left, left, left... face square to the plane.