Starting the downswing

[imperfectgolfer]

Here is a LB golf forum thread on "starting the downswing".

www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/thread7144-8.html

One forum member stated with reference to the left knee starting the downswing-: "It might seem like the same, but there is an important difference between using the knee, and using the hips.

If you start with the knee, it sets the right shoulder down plane. If you start with the hip, the right shoulder very often comes out over plane."

Do you believe that his claim makes sense? If yes, please explain the biomechanics?

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

It makes some sense to me and this is what I used to think in the downswing, 'kick out the left knee' first. Now I don't even worry about it. In fact since I got back into the game I haven't even thought about it.

The theory is that the left knee/left shin kicks out first and the hips will follow with a little bit of hip slide and then hip rotation. If you think about moving the hips instead of the left knee/shin then you run the risk of staightening the left left too early and/or getting too much hip rotation and coming over the top.

Watch Snead's old swing and pay close attention to his left knee/left shin in transition. That's where a lot of this philosophy comes from.

I used to use this philosophy when I was playing college golf but haven't done it since. I don't even think about the left knee or the hips in transition.




3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

You wrote-: "The theory is that the left knee/left shin kicks out first and the hips will follow with a little bit of hip slide and then hip rotation. If you think about moving the hips instead of the left knee/shin then you run the risk of staightening the left left too early and/or getting too much hip rotation and coming over the top."

I don't understand how you come to those causal-connection conclusions.

From my perspective, the left knee's movements is primarily dictated by the movement of the lower body in space, and not the other way around. I believe that the left knee automatically/naturally moves left-laterally when the left pelvis is pulled back towards the tush line. During this rotational motion, the pelvis may move left-laterally in the direction of the target and that depends on the golfer's i) weight distribution at the end-backswing position and ii) the relative position of the pelvis between the feet. Golfers who adopt the VJ Trolio swing style (increasing weight over the left leg in the late backswing associated with a shift of the pelvis to the left) will have far less left-lateral shift of the pelvis in the early downswing. I don't see why anybody should think that a rotational motion of the left pelvis back towards the tush line should automatically result in an OTT move. I think that the left knee will automatically/naturally move leftwards when the left pelvis is pulled back to the tush line, and I also think that this dual pelvic/left knee motion will promote secondary axis tilt and therefore a downplane motion of the right shoulder (rather than a roundhousing right shoulder movement) if a golfer starts off from a reverse-K end-backswing position and maintains a rightwards tilted spine during the early downswing.

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Denny,

What relevance is there in stating that Macs has an "opinion" that the knees should start the downswing?

Does Macs state what muscles/biomechanical actions cause the knees to move first, and why that has relevance to a good downswing action?

Jeff.

[joec]

Feb 19, 2010 10:53:52 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Denny,

What relevance is there in stating that Macs has an "opinion" that the knees should start the downswing?

Does Macs state what muscles/biomechanical actions cause the knees to move first, and why that has relevance to a good downswing action?

Jeff.
you stated that the left knee movement was automatic. i believe you are stating that the left knee leads the downswing. mac says the left knee leads the downswing. if it is automatic who cares about the bio . why would you need to sate any bio? both of you think the left knee starts the downswing. case closed, let us move on. but, if we work from the ground up, what are the feet doing? would not their action be first? just wondering?

[imperfectgolfer]

Joe,

I believe that there is a critical difference between what "seems" to move first in the downswing and the primary biomechanical actions causing that movement. I believe (that in the traditional left arm swinger's pivot-driven swing action) that the downswing must primarily start with a "left hip clearing" action (and not an independent left knee motion) as described by Ben Hogan in this diagram.



The fact that the left knee moves at the same time only has to do with human biomechanics that "connect" a primary pelvic motion to the legs that support the pelvis. The left knee only moves leftwards secondarily - because the pelvis is primarily moving leftwards during its "left hip clearing" motion.

Jeff.

[joec]

Feb 19, 2010 12:46:09 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Joe,

I believe that there is a critical difference between what "seems" to move first in the downswing and the primary biomechanical actions causing that movement. I believe (that in the traditional left arm swinger's pivot-driven swing action) that the downswing must primarily start with a "left hip clearing" action (and not an independent left knee motion) as described by Ben Hogan in this diagram.



The fact that the left knee moves at the same time only has to do with human biomechanics that "connect" a primary pelvic motion to the legs that support the pelvis. The left knee only moves leftwards secondarily - because the pelvis is primarily moving leftwards during its "left hip clearing" motion.

Jeff.

now, that is the kind of answer i like, jeff. there is no use in debating mac, he is not here. but with alberts knowledge, he may add his own view to the subject. thanks for your input.