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Post by kamandi on Dec 1, 2011 0:16:00 GMT -5
@ teeace and jeffy, thanks for sharing this info.
It would be a real bombshell if the 3D stuff that Manzella's scientists are using are found to produce inaccurate data, since it's shaping Manzella's understanding of the golf swing.
With this new 4D technique available, his scientists can check the method and the data produced to see if it does indeed show flaws in their own model. The quicker the truth can be found, the less misconceptions can be spread.
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Post by teeace on Dec 1, 2011 1:30:50 GMT -5
In case I get asked about this on Jeopardy,,,does the word 4D mean anything in particular? 4D came to one client when I showed our proto version and told him we were making 3D model device. He said to me that it's actually 4D, because time is so relevant part of that measuring. So X,Y,Z and time is 4D
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Post by teeace on Dec 1, 2011 3:33:25 GMT -5
So something about sequence and different measuring methods. I will never claim that some other devices measure it wrong and Ours is the only right way to do it, but we have to understand few points before making conclusions. When measuring speeds, we have to also take care about the direction and how it changes. It's great that Neal found that there is another way to measure hand speed and I wonder if he red some of my postings in few forums Here is our two ways of measuring the hand speed The red line is real 3D hand speed without direction so only distance and time between two points in 3D space. The blue one is when it's related to target (linear speed) and here is the explanation why it changes so much. where the red line shows left wrist distance from the target line and blue one is the club head. This all got it's meaning also when measuring body orientations and speeds. Our measurements of shoulders is for example relative to the vertical axis, and I think in many systems it's to spine angle. We will have both options in the future also, but I think that vertical axis method will be most used in the future. Anyway those accelerations and decelerations are dependent of the changes in body angles and in our way even the drop of the shoulder speed is mainly because of the deeper shoulder plane at that moment before it starts to go more around again. I see that so, that whole shoulder line starts to rotate first, then the right shoulder start to go more down and then fires through the impact from inside with all the force it can create and is also assisted by late and strong hips/legs action in this players case (please no names even they are guessed well ) The most dangerous part of the sequence and kinetic chain model is that people try to achieve it like I've seen. They really try to decelerate the inner circle and that leads to totally wrong muscular action when those measurings are badly understood. I know it perfectly, because I believed that chain for years and achieved huge pull hooks after I managed to do it Player never should decelerate anything, only drop in, wait, wait, wait and fire with all you got. That's why the shoulder speed reaches it's max after impact and right shoulder speed also gets very high there. No stall and release the club head. Rather hit with all the club and try to keep hands moving as fast they can.
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Post by kamandi on Dec 1, 2011 4:14:37 GMT -5
teeace, would you say that some of your findings are somewhat in line with those who think of the golf swing as a hammer throw? djwattsgolf.com/2010/10/06/leveraging-the-hammer-throw/I've been learning a swing where it's like I'm just hanging onto the grip, as my rotation and weight shift try to fling the club. It sounds familiar to what you advocate, as getting from the top to the slot is a bit slow and you wait, but I try to finish turn quickly (pivot hard) and straighten the left leg in order to get the clubface squaring. I also direct my hands as a unit to a point maybe about waist level and slightly left, where the delayed clubhead eventually lines up with. The more I look at Hogan clips, and some of the pictures he has in his book, like the way he hoists a basketball by flinging it with his body weight, as well as his descriptions where you have to hit first with the body, then the arms, then the hands .... I don't think he advocates right arm muscular thrust, nor a lefty swing. I think he advocates something more similar to a hammer throw. No need to be diplomatic; you can tell me if I'm flat out wrong, LOL!
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Post by tba on Dec 1, 2011 4:30:39 GMT -5
teeace, would you say that some of your findings are somewhat in line with those who think of the golf swing as a hammer throw? djwattsgolf.com/2010/10/06/leveraging-the-hammer-throw/I've been learning a swing where it's like I'm just hanging onto the grip, as my rotation and weight shift try to fling the club. It sounds familiar to what you advocate, as getting from the top to the slot is a bit slow and you wait, but I try to finish turn quickly (pivot hard) and straighten the left leg in order to get the clubface squaring. I also direct my hands as a unit to a point maybe about waist level and slightly left, where the delayed clubhead eventually lines up with. The more I look at Hogan clips, and some of the pictures he has in his book, like the way he hoists a basketball by flinging it with his body weight, as well as his descriptions where you have to hit first with the body, then the arms, then the hands .... I don't think he advocates right arm muscular thrust, nor a lefty swing. I think he advocates something more similar to a hammer throw. No need to be diplomatic; you can tell me if I'm flat out wrong, LOL! I think your flat out right, of course it's only my opinion but I'm unanimous in that opinion. Love your work.
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Post by fullback on Dec 1, 2011 6:30:12 GMT -5
Interesting concept, teeace. I'm curious and have a few questions. I apologize if they are too simple.
Are the graphs posted here driver swings? Are there differences seen if you overlay the graphs for driver and iron swings of the same player? Are they a median of multiple swings or are they a sample of an optimum swing by a player?
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Post by kamandi on Dec 1, 2011 6:48:38 GMT -5
teeace, would you say that some of your findings are somewhat in line with those who think of the golf swing as a hammer throw? djwattsgolf.com/2010/10/06/leveraging-the-hammer-throw/I've been learning a swing where it's like I'm just hanging onto the grip, as my rotation and weight shift try to fling the club. It sounds familiar to what you advocate, as getting from the top to the slot is a bit slow and you wait, but I try to finish turn quickly (pivot hard) and straighten the left leg in order to get the clubface squaring. I also direct my hands as a unit to a point maybe about waist level and slightly left, where the delayed clubhead eventually lines up with. The more I look at Hogan clips, and some of the pictures he has in his book, like the way he hoists a basketball by flinging it with his body weight, as well as his descriptions where you have to hit first with the body, then the arms, then the hands .... I don't think he advocates right arm muscular thrust, nor a lefty swing. I think he advocates something more similar to a hammer throw. No need to be diplomatic; you can tell me if I'm flat out wrong, LOL! I think your flat out right, of course it's only my opinion but I'm unanimous in that opinion. Love your work. Thanks, man, but I'm not that guy in the link. I just think the concepts he's applying to his swing sound really promising. My swing is a very big work in progress.
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Post by nmgolfer on Dec 1, 2011 9:22:58 GMT -5
Hello Teeace, I can't tell you how pleased I am to read someone with hard data to back up their assertion make that statement! A few years ago I went round-and-round with someone on another forum arguing that very point. He would claim that because his (double pendulum) model showed slowing, all player'a hands must slow. I told him a model is only as good as its data and its logic (GIGO). Data (such as what your system collects) is the final arbiter. I agree with fullback. Please demonstrate the differences between different shots (clubs) made by the same player. The next logical progression would be say a stick figure with links between the twelve major joints fully animated perhaps with a tabular display of instantaneous linear and angular velocities of each segment. That would show what's moving when and how fast. Also since hand (hub) path and velocity determines what the club does, being able to see the difference between optimal goal (a spiral) and actual would be very beneficial to both player and coach. I look forward to seeing more and thanks... ... The most dangerous part of the sequence and kinetic chain model is that people try to achieve it like I've seen. They really try to decelerate the inner circle and that leads to totally wrong muscular action when those measurings are badly understood. I know it perfectly, because I believed that chain for years and achieved huge pull hooks after I managed to do it Player never should decelerate anything, only drop in, wait, wait, wait and fire with all you got. That's why the shoulder speed reaches it's max after impact and right shoulder speed also gets very high there. No stall and release the club head. Rather hit with all the club and try to keep hands moving as fast they can.
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Post by teeace on Dec 1, 2011 9:34:14 GMT -5
Interesting concept, teeace. I'm curious and have a few questions. I apologize if they are too simple. Good questionsAre the graphs posted here driver swings? Those are 6i swingsAre there differences seen if you overlay the graphs for driver and iron swings of the same player? There is some and I will post later about thatAre they a median of multiple swings or are they a sample of an optimum swing by a player? It's one swing from on good ball striker.
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Post by teeace on Dec 1, 2011 9:38:03 GMT -5
teeace, would you say that some of your findings are somewhat in line with those who think of the golf swing as a hammer throw? djwattsgolf.com/2010/10/06/leveraging-the-hammer-throw/I've been learning a swing where it's like I'm just hanging onto the grip, as my rotation and weight shift try to fling the club. It sounds familiar to what you advocate, as getting from the top to the slot is a bit slow and you wait, but I try to finish turn quickly (pivot hard) and straighten the left leg in order to get the clubface squaring. I also direct my hands as a unit to a point maybe about waist level and slightly left, where the delayed clubhead eventually lines up with. The more I look at Hogan clips, and some of the pictures he has in his book, like the way he hoists a basketball by flinging it with his body weight, as well as his descriptions where you have to hit first with the body, then the arms, then the hands .... I don't think he advocates right arm muscular thrust, nor a lefty swing. I think he advocates something more similar to a hammer throw. No need to be diplomatic; you can tell me if I'm flat out wrong, LOL! I think you are not wrong at all. We have to have forces and counter forces just like in hammer throw. The biggest difference I think is that we should hit with whole the club, not to put too much attention to speed up the club head. But body work is quite similar.
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Post by fullback on Dec 1, 2011 9:40:45 GMT -5
Thank you for your reply, teeace. I look forward to reading more when you have the time to post more information.
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Post by natep on Dec 1, 2011 12:04:02 GMT -5
Thank you for your reply, teeace. I look forward to reading more when you have the time to post more information. +1 Thanks, Tee!
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Post by tba on Dec 1, 2011 15:33:53 GMT -5
I think your flat out right, of course it's only my opinion but I'm unanimous in that opinion. Love your work. Thanks, man, but I'm not that guy in the link. I just think the concepts he's applying to his swing sound really promising. My swing is a very big work in progress. It was meant for teeace but your in there as well.
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Post by kamandi on Dec 1, 2011 18:49:37 GMT -5
Thanks, man, but I'm not that guy in the link. I just think the concepts he's applying to his swing sound really promising. My swing is a very big work in progress. It was meant for teeace but your in there as well. That's nice of you to say, hehehe!
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Post by kamandi on Dec 1, 2011 18:56:16 GMT -5
teeace, would you say that some of your findings are somewhat in line with those who think of the golf swing as a hammer throw? djwattsgolf.com/2010/10/06/leveraging-the-hammer-throw/I've been learning a swing where it's like I'm just hanging onto the grip, as my rotation and weight shift try to fling the club. It sounds familiar to what you advocate, as getting from the top to the slot is a bit slow and you wait, but I try to finish turn quickly (pivot hard) and straighten the left leg in order to get the clubface squaring. I also direct my hands as a unit to a point maybe about waist level and slightly left, where the delayed clubhead eventually lines up with. The more I look at Hogan clips, and some of the pictures he has in his book, like the way he hoists a basketball by flinging it with his body weight, as well as his descriptions where you have to hit first with the body, then the arms, then the hands .... I don't think he advocates right arm muscular thrust, nor a lefty swing. I think he advocates something more similar to a hammer throw. No need to be diplomatic; you can tell me if I'm flat out wrong, LOL! I think you are not wrong at all. We have to have forces and counter forces just like in hammer throw. The biggest difference I think is that we should hit with whole the club, not to put too much attention to speed up the club head. But body work is quite similar. Thanks, man, I'll keep that in mind. The reason I speed up my finish pivot is that I have a hard time getting the clubhead to catch up with the longer clubs, like the driver. One question about speed and acceleration with different clubs ..... Do you intentionally change your pace and acceleration through impact depending on the length of the club you'll hit, or do you try to swing at the same pace and acceleration for every club?
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