Brian Manzella's comments on the release

[imperfectgolfer]

Consider this BM-thread page.

www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13171-blog-lets-list-all-scientifcally-correct-concepts-golfing-machine-5.html

Brian made the following statements.

1) The hand path is always circular, and the release point IN ANY POWERFUL SWING is as non-Automatic as pulling a slot machine lever.

2) The endless belt is total B.S.

Do you think that Brian is correct?

Do you think that this one-armed golfer's release action is non-automatic, and that the endless belt concept cannot be applied to his release action?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUTk7m5PozQ

What about the situation where that one-arm golfer applies his right hand to the grip (in the traditional manner) and swings in the same manner while making sure that his right hand does apply any push-power to the left hand/grip end of the club during the downswing - would his release action be non-automatic, and would the endless belt concept not apply to his swing?

Do you believe that Jamie Sadlowski is using a non-automatic release, and what is he doing to induce a non-automatic release?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep-qidwgCII

Jeff.

[Richie3Jack]

I don't think the endless belt is total BS. I do think there is some sort of 'pulley' in the golf swing and that if your pulley is smaller, then you don't need as much hand speed to generate a certain amount of clubhead speed as somebody with a larger pulley.

However, it's been proven thru scientific study and sensors that the hands do slow down as they release the clubhead. HK believed the hands moved at the same rate of speed thru the downswing while the clubhead accelerated.

I also don't quite agree with the non-automatic release part, but I'd be interested in what exactly is behind his statement.

And of course, I'm always subject to change my mind




3JACK

[Richie3Jack]

Oh, I agree the hands are always circular. I think there are some golfers whose delivery path of the hands is less circular than others, but I've never seen a golfer really come close to being very straight line.



3JACK

[gmbtempe]

Feb 20, 2010 15:44:50 GMT -5 Richie3Jack said:

I don't think the endless belt is total BS. I do think there is some sort of 'pulley' in the golf swing and that if your pulley is smaller, then you don't need as much hand speed to generate a certain amount of clubhead speed as somebody with a larger pulley.

However, it's been proven thru scientific study and sensors that the hands do slow down as they release the clubhead. HK believed the hands moved at the same rate of speed thru the downswing while the clubhead accelerated.

I also don't quite agree with the non-automatic release part, but I'd be interested in what exactly is behind his statement.

And of course, I'm always subject to change my mind




3JACK

I need a smaller pulley, unfortunately its not as easy as going to Home Depot. ;D

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack

I have traced the hand arc path of Jamie Sadlowski's swing.



Don't you think that the hands are traveling in a relatively straight line direction in the early downswing - between point 1 and point 2?

Jeff.

[starretj]

"I have traced the hand arc path of Jamie Sadlowski's swing."

No Jeff, you haven't. What you have done is take a 3 dimensional movement and projected it onto a plane that is approximately 35 degrees rotated from the plane of motion. If you think the hand path is straight then figure out mathematically what it would take for the end of a radius to move in a straight line from pure rotation. Then from your findings, see if you can find anyone who moves their forward shoulder in the type of motion it takes to form a straight line from a fixed radius rotation.

Jimmy S.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jimmy,

I am fully aware that I am tracing his hand arc path on a 2-D plane that is angled relative to his true hand arc path. However, I believe that the parallax error is small. I think that his hands are moving down-and-out-and-slightly backwards between point 1 and point 2 along a "true" 3-D hand arc path that is relatively straight.

I have used a "real life" golfer who has the same flexibility as a good golfer (like Jamie) and I have watched to see how the hands move in 3-D space in the early downswing - prior to the release of PA#4. I think that the 3-D hand arc path can accurately be described as "straightish" in the early downswing. During the early downswing, the left arm is not moving independently in the left shoulder socket. The left hand's movement in space in the early downswing is due to the movement of the left shoulder socket in space, and therefore there is no "fixed" fulcrum point.



The left shoulder socket is moving in space in image 1-4 (prior to the release of PA#4). PA#4 only starts to release in image 5.

Consider an imaginary endless belt system superimposed on this image of JS.



Even if JS's hand arc path between point 1 and point 2 can only be described as "straightish" (rather than perfectly straight), one can see that it is parallel to the straight line section of the endless belt pulley section. By contrast, the hand arc path between point 2 and point 3 is angled across the endless belt pulley system - as if it is going around the end pulley.

Jeff.

[starretj]

Jeff,
My post has nothing to do with parallax and has everything to do with geometry and oblique planes. I am not saying that you can or cannot have a straightish section to your hand path, what I am suggesting is that instead of citing a book, that you do a little research on your own and figure out if it is possible or not and if it is possible, what does it take. When you figure out what it takes, then is this something you would want to incorporate into a swing and is it even possible.

Take something that is circular and start rotating it on it's horizontal axis from your field of view. What do you get? An ellipse that looks straighter towards the top and bottom and sharper in its angles at the left and right side. So now we have a little conundrum because I can take a perfect circle and make it look similar to Jamie's hand path. You can argue with me or you can do some research and either learn something new or confirm your original thoughts, your call.

Jimmy S.

[imperfectgolfer]

Jimmy,

I think that we are operating in parallel mental universes regarding this topic, and it is obvious that my answers do not resonate with you.

By the way, my personal insights into the "straightish" section of the hand arc path doesn't come from the TGM book. It came from my personal research - I discovered that the endless belt concept only works for me (as an useful mental image) if I change the entire orientation of Homer Kelley's endless belt pulley system.

In his book, he has the endless belt pulley system aligned as follows.



I studied the hand arc path of many golfers and could not find a hand arc path that could fit in with this type of orientation of the endless belt system. I therefore rotated the endless belt system 90 degrees clockwise (as seen from face-on) and I believe that my endless belt pulley concept is more consistent with "reality" (hand arc path of "real life" golfers such as Ben Hogan and Tiger Woods).

perfectgolfswingreview.net/endlessbelt.htm

Based on your previously expressed viewpoint, I would not be surprised if you have very little sympathy for my "beliefs" about the endless belt concept.

Jeff.

[jerryg]

Geez, I enjoy this discussion.
I can appreciate that what actually happens is probably nothing like what it Feels like I am doing. I am trying my best to Feel a straight line delivery. Of course it cannot really be straight since I am turning in some fashion.
Now I'd like to figure out how to Feel that endless belt so I could have a small wheel with fast hands.

[starretj]

jerryg, I believe that you will find that you will need to slow down your arms speed to achieve the results for which you are searching. Over acceleration is a killer for what you desire. I hope this helps.

Jimmy S.

[gmbtempe]

This is my favorite swing on the internet, and I think shows how a small pulley and gradual exceleration is demonstrated. Notice it looks like everything speeds up once his hands reach P6 (actually P6.5)!

[imperfectgolfer]

Jerry,

The endless belt concept is only a mental concept that we impose on our "real life" swings.

When thinking about the endless belt analogy with reference to your own swing - where is the i) straight line section of your endless belt (? early ? mid ? late downswing) and where is the end pulley situated (? mid-downswing ? late downswing ? pre-impact)?

At what point in your downswing do you want the club to start releasing - ? mid-downswing, ? early part of the late downswing, ? just before impact?

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

Regarding Mike' swing - three questions regarding your understanding of his EB.

Where do you think his EB's straight line section is situated, where is the end-pulley situated and when does the club enter the end pulley section, and when does he start to release the club?

Does he have a sweep, random, late or snap release?

Please use the face of a clock to describe your answer eg. 10 o'clock.

Jeff.

p.s. I think that he is not using a leftwards-centered backswing swing style (S&T swing) in this particular swing action. I think that he has a rightwards-centered backswing action in this particular swing.

[gmbtempe]

Feb 23, 2010 11:05:19 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Greg,

Regarding Mike' swing - three questions regarding your understanding of his EB.

Where do you think his EB's straight line section is situated, where is the end-pulley situated and when does the club enter the end pulley section, and when does he start to release the club?

Does he have a sweep, random, late or snap release?

Please use the face of a clock to describe your answer eg. 10 o'clock.

Jeff.

p.s. I think that he is not using a leftwards-centered backswing swing style (S&T swing) in this particular swing action. I think that he has a rightwards-centered backswing action in this particular swing.

There is some confusion with regards to Mike McNary. He works with Dana Dahlquist but when asked specifically about this swing he stated it was "100% darome". So yes I would expect it to be rightwards centered.

I won't be able to answer your questions until later.