Stack and Tilt

[Richie3Jack]

I'm curious to hear from S&T'ers or people who have tried the S&T.

What do you like about the pattern? What do you find the most difficult thing to do in the pattern? What part of ballstriking has the pattern helped you with the most?

That and any other thoughts on the pattern would be helpful.




3JACK

[gmbtempe]

I have the videos, got them in August. I just finished the book.

The book is much better than the videos, though both are good and beneficial to all golfers. There are pieces in the pattern that could help all players. The book does a great job in the ball flight laws and faults and fixes to those laws, you dont have to use the pattern to benefit from the book.

What I liked most about the pattern was the contact, contact with all clubs was better than any other pattern I have tried. I also thought in general the motion is fairly simple to understand, weight starts on left foot and increases the entire swing. Also it gets very hard to lose the flying wedge with this swing. Ball flight was lower and penetrating.

I had some tough negatives though with the swing. I am sure an SnT teacher would say that I was probably not doing some of the pieces correct which I would not disagree with..but I would say if a good athlete such as myself cannot come close to producing the swing after watching the videos, reading the book, working on the range with an SnT based good player, hitting about 500 balls, then who is their target?

My negatives in order of importance

1. Loss of distance, I was a club shorter with the irons and I lost about 30 yards with the driver. My club speed was down about 7mph with this swing and launch angle was very low.

2. I hit a hook naturally, this swing tends to move the swing circle back which makes you hit out, so this tended to push the plane line even further right, more hooks spin and lower flight

3. The shanks would creep in, led to confidence issues hitting the ball.

4. I found the motion tough as I dont have great flexibility, the pushing up extension through the ball, clearly the hip with all that weight on the left side was hard. I know they can take not very athletic people and improve their swings but I think they do this by improving horrid contact eliminating flipping and getting the weight left from a reverse pivot motion. I just found it hard to make a dynamic swing.

I think its a viable pattern, and I bet with a pro there teaching you regularly they could improve some of the issues I was having, but just trying the system, method, whatever you want to call it from the video and book I was not able to improve my shots.

[fearlessgolfer]

My journey of S&T started shortly after reading GD mag in June of 2007. Aaron Baddeley was their coverboy of S&T. Knowing how Badds were with D Leadbetter, and didn't get better or win, I was surprise to see him with a newswing, compact swing and super solid shots.
At the driving range, FLUSH after FLUSH came in my iron shots which were absent for a while. I thought it was pretty amazing to see the results from reading the magazine.
I was able to shoot in low to mid 70's again even with LOW driving shots to the right.

More search brought talking to MOG on the phone, finding forum on golfwrx, Dana Dahlquist, David Orr and finally Nick Clearwater last march of 2009.

Most will complaint about low shots with driver which I found out at their school and N Clearwater. Head steady + Linear hips=keeping the 2nd tilt(or increase) leads to higher driver shots.
By a mile, I found this pattern easiest to do RIchie.
Took off 3 wks from golf, came back and shot 79 with triple bogie at 1st hole, and that is parking lot to the first tee without any warm up. I am not saying this to impress anyone, but it simply impresses me how easy to retain this low maintenance swing.
I feel that if I had more time to practice and devote my time in GOLF, this pattern would help me to be a scratch golfer once again.
For the record, I feel like first time in my golfing life, I understand this swing in complete conceptual way. I know what I need to work on if I had more time, and with that, I should get better as the piece better fit into my current swing.

[ef425]

Stack and tilt interested me because I agree that a major difference between a developing player and a competent player is low point control. Think of all the shots you've thrown away where if you had only hit it solid you would have been fine.

The major difference with this swing pattern is the weight on the left throughout the whole swing. You've probably never made another athletic motion this way. Throwing a football or swinging a baseball bat or anything else uses a natural weight shift from right to left if you're a right hander. But maybe its worth it. Golf puts such a premium on hitting the ball first. If you can't hit the ball before the ground forget about all your alignments. Who cares if the club face was square at the top of the swing when you lay the sod over the ball.

That said I'm getting results similar to other people who have tried stack and tilt. Lower launch, less distance. Ball striking seems to be better but I haven't played too many rounds with it to really tell.

Before you try stack and tilt ask yourself how good your low point control is and how much it affects your game. If, like me, its at the top of your list, stack and tilt is worth a try but be ready to practice because it'll feel different.

Emmett

[coolsideofdapillow]

I just started S n' T. I read the book first then got the DVDs. I felt I learned more on how to perform the swing from the book than the DVDs.

I do have a few problems. I have trouble getting more weight onto the front foot on the downswing. And I'm still losing my flying wedge.

[imperfectgolfer]

I am very biased against the S&T swing.

I think that the S&T swing can work very well from a geometrical/mechanical perspective, and it can result in solid ball-striking. However, I think that the S&T swing is too dependent on biomechanically unnatural movements at the level of the lumbar spine, which may predispose to chronic back problems.

See this review paper if you interested in my biased opinions.

perfectgolfswingreview.net/stackandtilt.htm

Jeff.

[chipper3344]

Scientific review has stated it actually exerts less force and pressure on your back than a more "conventional" golf swing.

[Richie3Jack]

This is something I have wondered about. I used to have some pretty bad lower back problems and some of the stuff my chiropractor had me do was similar to the motion made in the S&T swing. But, the chiro (and I think chiros are generally very, very good) would have me moving the spine in both directions. So thrusting the pelvis only forward is something I do not know if it helps with the back or not (I'm not a chiro, so I don't know).

One thing that helped rid me of lower back problems was stretching the hamstrings and calfs. Simple as that. You would be shocked how stiff your calfs are.




3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

Chipper - you wrote-: "Scientific review has stated it actually exerts less force and pressure on your back than a more "conventional" golf swing."

Can you tell me who performed the scientific review and can you also tell me how I can get a copy of that review, so that I can read it?

Jeff.

[fearlessgolfer]

Richie, I used to go see my chiropractor every two months when playing golf regularly due to back aches and general check for alignment. Since doing YOGA, I rarely needed to see my Chiropractor as well as my massage therapist. Well, due to some personal issues, I've taken off from golf and all other activities for 8 months.
Just recently started doing some kind of exercise, but not yoga. I went to see my chiropractor for general alignment as well as tightness all over, especially calfs and hamstrings. He said it's very common since we use them the most.

As far as S&T and back issues, I have had NONE vs Pre-S&T, I used to be sore and sporadic back spasms. Most of them just don't know it's spine's full extension while weight is on lead leg of the swing. If not careful, S&T imitators will leave the weight on their backfoot during impact to finish or just finish. That is when you will hurt your back.
Soon, the S&T instructors will come here for more detailed information, I am sure.

Chipper-Please, I would love to see some various scientific research regarding this matter as well.

[riduffer]

I bought the S&T book and worked on the pattern for about a month. Unfortunately, I did experience lower back pain which convinced me to return to a conventional pivot. Maybe I wasn't performing the mechanics correctly, or maybe my body was still adjusting to the different muscles being activated, but I didn't feel comfortable continuing without an instructor.

In the brief time I used S&T, I was hitting my short irons really well. I found it easier to make solid contact with weight shift taken out of the equation. Driver was hit or miss, but that's the norm for me.

When I went back to a conventional pivot, I noticed I was still hitting my irons pretty solid (better than I had been pre-S&T). So while I didn't stick with S&T, I think it actually helped my game overall by improving low point control and teaching me the sensation of a crisply struck iron. People have commented that my swing has a pretty centered look, so maybe some aspects of S&T have been ingrained.

[kevcarter]

Jan 21, 2010 9:38:46 GMT -5 riduffer said:

I bought the S&T book and worked on the pattern for about a month. Unfortunately, I did experience lower back pain which convinced me to return to a conventional pivot. Maybe I wasn't performing the mechanics correctly, or maybe my body was still adjusting to the different muscles being activated, but I didn't feel comfortable continuing without an instructor.

In the brief time I used S&T, I was hitting my short irons really well. I found it easier to make solid contact with weight shift taken out of the equation. Driver was hit or miss, but that's the norm for me.

When I went back to a conventional pivot, I noticed I was still hitting my irons pretty solid (better than I had been pre-S&T). So while I didn't stick with S&T, I think it actually helped my game overall by improving low point control and teaching me the sensation of a crisply struck iron. People have commented that my swing has a pretty centered look, so maybe some aspects of S&T have been ingrained.

I agree with what Richie says, take the pieces that work with your pattern, it's not all or nothing. They are brilliant in the way they teach the G.O.L.F. swing in my opinion. The whole enchilada may not be for everybody, but parts of it certainly are, and if you enjoy the entire pattern, GO FOR IT!

Kevin

[gmbtempe]

I did not really have lower back pain using the pattern, I was actually more sore from doing the lateral inflexion to the degree they wanted and it was probably from new stretching of muscles.

[kevcarter]

Jan 21, 2010 11:00:58 GMT -5 gmbtempe said:

I did not really have lower back pain using the pattern, I was actually more sore from doing the lateral inflexion to the degree they wanted and it was probably from new stretching of muscles.

The pattern didn't create pain for me, but I had back problems going in, my body just doesn't move that way well enough to take full advantage of the pattern. I would really enjoy giving it another shot if I ever get my fat body into better condition with a little more flexibility.

Kevin

[gmbtempe]

yea, for anyone with left knee issues or back issues I just am not sure that this is the best pattern to choose, I have no scientific basis for that opinion just my forming it from doing the pattern.