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Post by jonnygrouville on Feb 22, 2010 2:40:14 GMT -5
A couple of threads have touched on subjects I am interested in at the moment that could be consolidated and boiled down (and over-simplified) to ‘improvement’. Not about whether we should be using one pattern or theory over another, not what to improve, but how to improve with a focus on technique (hence posting this in the golf swing section).
I will try and avoid any of my own problems or experiences for now, but would like to hear any ideas from anyone else of what they have found useful in their own improvement.
The discussion of self-study vs lessons has been very interesting. It would be good to hear from any teachers or coaches as to what they find most effective in their lessons.
This also raises the question of whether students themselves can be more proactive to essentially get more out of the instruction. Richie’s point of asking questions is key. If a pro is telling us to change something without saying why, we should be asking.
Likewise, we should leave a lesson knowing what we should be looking for videoing our own swings. Say you have a cupped left wrist at the top. A pro should be able to tell you what to do to fix that and that you can have the next lesson once it is fixed (or after a suitable amount of time if that fix isn’t working). Shouldn’t they?
Or is this too technical? I don’t think we’d be here if we weren’t ‘technically-minded’ people. Is a little knowledge a dangerous thing? Should the pro be making an assessment of whether a pupil needs the technical background?
Or what they are willing to change? Does the swing need full scale surgery or will a small bandage do? A lot here will clearly depend on the individual and what they are prepared to commit to, but, again, there must be some assessment of the ability of the individual to make the changes as required. There is a big difference between making changes to improve someone’s game slightly by next weekend or significantly in six months time.
Are pros frightened of making big changes? The cynic would say they are after repeat business. The more sympathetic would question whether the ‘normal’ student is capable of making the kind of changes to fundamentally improve the mechanics of their swing. They also, in all probability, face a fair chunk of time of hitting it all over the place.
Has anyone had lessons from a Leadbetter Academy or anything like that? I have always been curious over what this involves. How do they approach any of this? Is there anything ‘value added’ from these lessons?
I was interested in the comments about swinging too upright, being told to swing flatter and ending up too flat. Not sure whether it is still in there, but there used to be a part of the PGA exam where you would give a pro (swinging like a beginner) a mock lesson. If they started with their hands an inch from the ground and you said, ‘Your hands are too low’, they would crank them up until the club was vertical and top another ball before you had a chance to do anything else. The ‘Your swing is too upright’ comment wouldn’t have got very good marks.
This also raises the point of feel vs real. Being shown orthodox is one thing, being told how it is going to feel and given some drills to take away and practice is very different. Again, it is going to be a brave pro to tell a student that their backswing is going to feel like they are shoving the club up their own nose for three months, but this could be what they need to change their backswing (probably only by a couple of degrees!).
I know ‘muscle memory’ is a debated concept, but drills can clearly help when making an improvement. How has anyone best used drills to improve? I have always thought something tangible showing the key parts of a drill would be useful to take away from a lesson. Pros must know which ones they regularly recommend so could print out pictures demonstrating what should be done and handout to students. Surely a nice bit of ‘value added’?
Any thoughts appreciated.
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Post by gmbtempe on Feb 22, 2010 10:44:09 GMT -5
Good post, couple points that caught my attention
Likewise, we should leave a lesson knowing what we should be looking for videoing our own swings
This has been helpful in my recent lessons, knowing when I get out of position on my own video's based on what we covered in the past. I might know how to fix it without to much effort, or at least I know what needs to be addressed.
Or is this too technical? I don’t think we’d be here if we weren’t ‘technically-minded’ people.
Maybe my number one pet peeve of some instructors...do what I tell you because its right and you don't need to know why because you won't understand it anyways. I hate that attitude and will be the last lesson with me for sure.
There is a big difference between making changes to improve someone’s game slightly by next weekend or significantly in six months time.
I think its a question every pro should ask, what is your short term goal and long term. Are you having once specific problem you need to work on or are you looking to build your swing over time. The answer, IMO, would go a long way in how you conduct the lesson.
Are pros frightened of making big changes?
I think so, many of them are. When you make big changes more bad things can happen short term than good, I mean the student may actually struggle a bit and they may have to commit more time and money for more instruction. I think its much easier for some to throw a band aid on things, but long term who does that help?
Again, it is going to be a brave pro to tell a student that their backswing is going to feel like they are shoving the club up their own nose for three months, but this could be what they need to change their backswing (probably only by a couple of degrees!).
I am going through this a bit right now. The changes I am making are pretty drastic, steeper backswing, more over the top on the downswing, less hip slide, etc etc. I have the commitment to keep working on things, lessor student probably would not.
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Post by mudball on Feb 22, 2010 17:52:54 GMT -5
I think a lot depends on exactly what you are trying to improve. If you want a pretty swing and to look good (and there is nothing wrong in that) then you need to focus on swing mechanics. If you want to hit the ball further then improving your general physical conditioning will help as well. If you want to be the person they fear to play in matchplay then you can work on your course management and mental toughness.
I aspire to taking a holistic approach and improving all these areas a little bit. Some more than others.
I think it must be quite tough to radically change someone's swing especially if they do not play or practice that regularly - typically the average golfer has a job, perhaps a family... I think most people would like a coach that works with what they have got rather than start again. Especially if they are a member of a club and forked out loads of cash and only get to play at weekends foe example.
I think ultimately your goal should be to understand your own swing and game sufficiently that you can spot errors developing and correct them by re-applying fundamentals you hold close to your game.
I was once surprised when listening to an interview of a UK Golf Pro called Simon Dyson. Nice lad - excellent golfer. I heard him asked how he set up to hit different shots - fades and draws / high and low shots. Simon said (whether you believe it or not...) words to the effect of 'Oh I don't know, I just feel the shot shape and see it in my mind's eye and hit it.' Sounds cool - so good you don't know how you do it - so natural like being asked how do you make your heart beat faster when you run and slow down when at rest... or perhaps... a potential disaster when it unravells and you can't put it back together again without flying half way round the world to see your coach(es)?
I once read an interview by Sam Snead - he basically said he spent years practising the wrong thing. Shaping long irons and hitting fairway woods and mid irons. He said in the interview he would recommend to someone starting out to practice driving and wedges the most - lots of half shots and little shots around the green and putting. Don't waste time practising long irons, mid irons - hit some but focus on driver and wedge - that was his advice.
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Post by jonnygrouville on Feb 22, 2010 20:39:56 GMT -5
Interesting comments. Thanks.
So much of this seems to boil down to the teacher taking time to understand their pupil. Whether they are going to practice between lessons, whether they are going to video their swings, whether they are happy to hit it all over the shop for a couple of weeks, whether they are looking to improve long term, and so on.
Regarding the reluctance of pros to give us technical information, they might have a point. If we are here, I am sure we have all been guilty at one stage or another of being overly technical, but we should still have the info.
The cynic would say it is because the pro doesn’t really know. There is an issue here with having lessons from good golfers; sometimes they just don’t know why something works. Simon Dyson is a good example there. Who would take a lesson from him on how to hit a fade?
It is easy to wheel out the ‘those that can, do; those that can’t, teach’ quote, but it is more complicated than this.
I agree on the Snead comment, but there is a difference between improving your technique and improving your scores. Again, we wouldn’t be here if we didn’t think improving our technique wouldn’t get rid of the couple of wild shots a round or whatever it is we have identified in our games. We aren’t people that have forty putts a round and want to improve by two shots.
Personally, I have always struggled with pitching and hitting a hook. To me, these are linked. If I look to take the hook out of my game, my pitching will improve because it will be a more wedge friendly swing.
It is clearly very tough to change someone’s swing radically, but that does not mean it can not be done and should not be attempted once the pro understands what the individual wants and what they are prepared to do to achieve it. I think there is a reticence here as well. Faldo changed his swing hitting thousands of balls watched every second by Leadbetter. What chance does a club amateur have of making a similar level of change?
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johngrahamgolf
'88 Apex Redlines
3Jack Top 20 Short Game/Putting Instructor
Posts: 229
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Post by johngrahamgolf on Feb 23, 2010 10:08:21 GMT -5
As a teacher I will take a shot at some of these questions.
The discussion of self-study vs lessons has been very interesting. It would be good to hear from any teachers or coaches as to what they find most effective in their lessons.
People are as different as the people who teach them. Some people have different skills that allow for different paths of information and instruction. I think if anyone is truly serious about changing self study and lessons should go together.
I make it a point during my first lesson with a student to specifically ask do they like to know the why or the how. Do you want to know why we are making the change or just tell me what to do.
Likewise, we should leave a lesson knowing what we should be looking for videoing our own swings. Say you have a cupped left wrist at the top. A pro should be able to tell you what to do to fix that and that you can have the next lesson once it is fixed (or after a suitable amount of time if that fix isn’t working). Shouldn’t they?
Fix-that's a pretty strong word and rarely does it occur and if it does, I can guess it may creep in again in the future.
Finding out what they are willing to change can usually be assesed by a few simple questions. No problem there.
Are pros frightened of making big changes? The cynic would say they are after repeat business. The more sympathetic would question whether the ‘normal’ student is capable of making the kind of changes to fundamentally improve the mechanics of their swing. They also, in all probability, face a fair chunk of time of hitting it all over the place.
I don't think pro's are afraid of making big changes. I also don't think students accurately determine the work necessary to create the change. However, I don't think most people need a big change because their goals don't demand or support it.
I don't think it's bravery to tell your student their backswing may feel like it goes up your nose if that feeling creates the alignments that will make a better ball flight. I know for me, I tell people that their will be some lessons that will make your bad shots better and their will be some lessons that make your good shots better and they are very different.
If they are accurately assessing success and failure, progress can be rapid. For example, if we are working on a certain position, success and failure is based on the position not the result. Too many students are simply trying to make the ball do something instead of trying to make themselves do something. This I don't understand. My job is confirming or denying if what they are feeling is producing the position we want.
That ball does not move. The goal is the swing. You are trying to learn what you are doing and what you need to do. The ball and it's result are irrelevant until you are actually producing the position you are trying to make. This involves lots of slow motion. Using your eyes or video to see what you are doing.
I think most teachers spend a great deal of their time teaching students how to learn and how to practice. This is the true art of a skillful teacher. And this is the true responsibility of a skillful student.
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Post by jonnygrouville on Feb 23, 2010 19:34:05 GMT -5
Great stuff! I especially like the last point as the process is clearly two-way, but there is clearly responsibility with the student and the concept of a 'skillful student' is interesting. This is very much where this thread started, trying to work out how we can become better students, gain more from our lessons and achieve our goals.
Does make you realise how many factors need to be considered and people who have coaches or instructors they can communicate with in this way should count themselves very lucky. It is clear John has a philosophy on the subject and appreciates the complexity of the matter.
This is not saying that some pros are obstructive to this, but it is a fact that (in golf and pretty much any field or subject you can think of) being good at something yourself or having all the technical knowledge in the world will not necessarily make you a good teacher. I remember a physics professor standing in front of us stunned to silence that we didn't just 'get' quantum mechanics, the fundamental concepts of which he had clearly picked up at some stage in the dark and distant past over a cup of sugary tea.
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Post by jonnygrouville on Feb 24, 2010 23:06:52 GMT -5
Whilst my mind was still on the subject, I checked out the TGM translations relating to learning from mechanics not feel:
…true practice should be more about the mechanics and alignments of the swing and the ball flight should be 'immaterial'.
So basically you want to practice mechanics and alignments and develop a feel from those mechanics and alignments and then take that feel to the course.
Okay. So how does this work in reality? How has anyone used this to improve their swing?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 24, 2010 23:23:15 GMT -5
I use it all of the time. The problem with going just on ball flight is that if your mechanics are out of wack or you rely on a lot of compensations, you'll tend to lack getting a consistent ballflight. But, if you can get the proper mechanics and establish a feel for those proper mechanics, you'll start hitting the ball better and consistently because all of you're basically doing is thinking of that swing feel. Probably the biggest thing TGM helped me with was understanding learning feel from mechanics and why it's so important.
3JACK
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Post by jonnygrouville on Feb 25, 2010 2:27:27 GMT -5
Interesting. So what is the actual step-by-step process?
Say someone is taking the clubhead too far inside and low to the ground on the takeaway.
Conventional wisdom would have them making takeaways feeling as if the clubhead is up and outside the target-line, to try and find the happy middle ground with an exaggerated feeling.
As I understand it, feel by mechanics would have them making correct 'mechanically proper' on plane takeaways.
Firstly, how is this accomplished? What is to stop them tricking themselves into thinking they are doing it correctly? In this case, would something like the Smart-Stick do the job? Or a club whilst looking, looking, looking to make sure they are performing the proper mechanics?
What would the next step be? Surely this will feel exaggerated, so this will still be the feeling when they go and hit balls.
How does the individual learn the ‘correct’ action? Good old-fashioned repetition until this action does not feel exaggerated?
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Post by Richie3Jack on Feb 25, 2010 15:24:04 GMT -5
jonny - i think it's a bad example you're using because takeaway is hardly an imperative or even a component of TGM.
Say you want to learn how to drag load (pull with the left arm, swinger procedure). Start off with using 'basic motion.' Check the alignments on camera. Work on it until you get those alignments correct and can do it consistently. Eventually you should start hitting the ball with proper compression doing the basic motion.
Then start with acquired motion. If you can't get those alignments correct with acquired motion...go back to basic motion and start to 'feel around' the differences in doing it right with basic motion vs. doing it incorrectly with acquired motion. Go in slow motion if you have to. Close your eyes if you have to. Do both.
Then the same process when you go into total motion. Eventually you want to develop a feel that will allow you to get the mechanics and alignments you want consistently. Then you get up to the ball and say 'alright, I want to feel this when I swing' and all of the sudden you're using the good mechanics and alignments in your swing.
The Hogan 'slow motion' drill that he used quite often is great for grasping that feel. I just think that adding TGM's basic, acquired and total motion with the slo motion drill makes it even easier.
3JACK
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Post by jonnygrouville on Feb 25, 2010 20:57:43 GMT -5
Like it. Okay. Thanks. Will give it a go...
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