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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 21, 2012 12:24:28 GMT -5
Sean Payton suspended for 1-year and they lose two 2nd round picks.
It's stuff like this, along with the Cowboys & Redskins fines and how the game is being turned into the CFL, that makes me think I'll probably wind up not watching in 5-10 years.
It's pretty clear to me that Goodell just isn't a very bright person or John Mara and Bob Kraft are pulling the strings in this league.
They never once suspended Belichick for SpyGate, which challenged the integrity of the game. Belichick was fined $500k, but weeks after that happened, the Patriots announced that he got a new contract for an undisclosed amount. Meaning...they took care of the fine for him. They also lost a 1st round pick, but they had 2 first round picks and lost the higher pick, instead of the 10th overall pick they had gotten from the Niners.
I'm not a Saints fan by any means. I think they were a shit organization before Drew Brees. They had every intention to move to LA and then San Antonio before Katrina (and then San Antonio after Katrina). Tom Benson was a joke of an owner who got lucky when Brees didn't pass the Dolphins physical (and Brees WAS going to Miami if he passed their physical).
They essentially got plum lucky to land a Pro Bowl QB that was heading into his prime. And now they are blowing it with treating him like he's merely a 'pretty good' QB. A leopard doesn't change its spots and neither does Tom Benson.
But, a 'bounty' more or less says that a player will get a prize of money if they injure another player. It doesn't say that it has to be an illegal hit. Obliterate a QB on a legal hit, you get the prize.
Of course, it's reprehensible from an ethical standpoint. It also gets dicey in inferring that a player should make an illegal hit to injure a player. Although the prize was so small, that I doubt anybody would take it that seriously.
Even more damning towards Goodell's ruling is that nobody was injured by an illegal hit by the Saints defense. Kurt Warner was injured on a perfectly legal block. But, nothing else and certainly nothing illegal.
What the Pats did was flat out illegal. To make matters worse, they lied about it every single step of the way. At first they didn't do it. Then they only did it for the Jets game. Then they only did it for a few games. Then they only did it on defensive signals. Then Matt Walsh was lying.
At least the Saints copped to it quickly.
I understand why Goodell is doing it to a point because he wants to prevent lawsuits and more than likely, doesn't want to get laughed out of another Congressional hearing again.
Still, Belichick was never remotely close to being suspended and you have to wonder why Payton, who seemed to have peripheral knowledge of this at best, would be suspended for an entire year.
Like the SpyGate scandal, this punishment makes you question the integrity of the game, particularly in the future.
3JACK
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Post by mchepp on Mar 21, 2012 12:30:41 GMT -5
I agree penalty does not fit the crime. You make some good points about the Patriots too. If I were Payton I would sue the NFL.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 21, 2012 12:39:57 GMT -5
I don't think the Saints have much ground to sue on. They were told beforehand to stop the bounties and didn't. I think the Redskins and Cowboys certainly are well within their right to bring their fines to court, although I think Jerry won't do it in fear of losing another Super Bowl bid at Cowboys Stadium.
Still, the NFL is really starting to reek. It is getting to be more like the Giants, Jets, Packers, Steelers and Patriots run everything. Whatever they want, they can get and there's nothing the other teams can do about it. Nothing lately has shown me any different. So I wonder how long I'll keep watching.
3JACK
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jamo
'88 Apex Redlines
Posts: 142
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Post by jamo on Mar 21, 2012 21:49:01 GMT -5
Could be a way for Goodell to say "we care about player safety" while still pushing the 18-game schedule if you want to go the conspiracy route.
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Post by mchepp on Mar 22, 2012 9:36:31 GMT -5
I now hear the Payton lied even as recently as a few weeks ago about what happened. There are emails with lies and conversations as well. I am not certain a year is deserved but there should be some penalty.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 22, 2012 10:39:16 GMT -5
Yes, it appears that Payton lied although he didn't really have direct dealings with the bounty and more or less sent Joe Vitt to make sure that Williams wasn't getting out of hand.
It also appears that the 'bounty' was more on the up-and-up. Meaning, that the players pooled the money together and took away money for penalties, loafing, missed assignments, etc.
I think my problem is that there is a contradiction in punishment between what Belichick did and what Payton did (or even Williams).
I have no problem with punishment, even severe punishment. Mainly because while I think people are making the bounty program into something more sinister than it actually is, it still infers that it will pay players for an illegal hit that injures a player. That is reckless.
But, I now believe that SpyGate was far worse than we originally thought because of the coverup done by the league. I think the league has uncovered some things we didn't know about with BountyGate which are bad. So, if the league went out of their way to destroy the evidence of SpyGate, I can't help but think it was really really bad.
And for those who think I'm going overboard...it would have helped if the league didn't go out of its way to destroy the evidence because they could have then always shown the evidence that it was not that bad.
In the end, I really can't help but question the league's credibility.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 22, 2012 12:14:14 GMT -5
The issues is they were investigated and warned not to do this in 09', they continued to do this, condone this, as an organization for several years and then lied about it when the league found out with credible evidence.
The NFL is all about the money, they are only covering their ass on this one because of the recent concussion stuff and lawsuits.
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Post by woodbury on Mar 22, 2012 13:52:24 GMT -5
"The quarterback is goin down, and goin down hard" -Al Davis
This bounty system had no affect on the play on the field since defenses WANT to injure Qbs with hard, legal, or slightly late hits. The Patriots, on the other hand, cheated, and Belichick knew it was cheating, and was warned by a previous memo.
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Post by cwdlaw223 on Mar 22, 2012 13:57:39 GMT -5
The issues is they were investigated and warned not to do this in 09', they continued to do this, condone this, as an organization for several years and then lied about it when the league found out with credible evidence. The NFL is all about the money, they are only covering their ass on this one because of the recent concussion stuff and lawsuits. You have to be a lawyer! That's how we think! Roger is a lawyer and is thinking abou the current lawsuits in dealing with this case and player "safety." A bunch of bullshit. Every team pays for big, legal hits. I haven't seen anything that shows the Saints were paying for illegal hits. Has anyone seen info about payment for illegal hits??
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 22, 2012 14:07:40 GMT -5
Goodell is not a lawyer. I used to think that as well, finding out he's not. Believe it or not, he's a PR guy. Probably the shittiest one on the planet, but he's a PR guy.
His dad was a politician, which just about explains everything.
3JACK
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 22, 2012 14:56:01 GMT -5
The issues is they were investigated and warned not to do this in 09', they continued to do this, condone this, as an organization for several years and then lied about it when the league found out with credible evidence. The NFL is all about the money, they are only covering their ass on this one because of the recent concussion stuff and lawsuits. You have to be a lawyer! That's how we think! Roger is a lawyer and is thinking abou the current lawsuits in dealing with this case and player "safety." A bunch of bullshit. Every team pays for big, legal hits. I haven't seen anything that shows the Saints were paying for illegal hits. Has anyone seen info about payment for illegal hits?? Yes, there is eye witness testimony that there were payments.
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Post by kamandi on Mar 24, 2012 11:32:41 GMT -5
On ESPN 1000, Arian Foster said that the Saints are accountable for their actions. He also said he was against a system of rewarding players for injuring a fellow player and putting him out on the streets; it's livelihood that should be respected.
The Saints were questioned about the bounty system, and they flat out lied. They were warned years ago to knock it off, but they continued in the practice. Peyton, himself, continued to lie about not knowing anything about it, until he was forced to come clean because of documented evidence.
In essence, the Saints believed they were above the laws of the governing bodies in the NFL, and now they're paying the price for it. If they're arrogant enough to flip off Goodell and all the other teams who don't give incentives for intentionally injuring a fellow player, then they should be man enough to take whatever sentence is passed on to them.
I do agree that the Pats' cheating was handled with kid gloves and favoritism, but you can't use that as an excuse to give the Saints a lighter sentence. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
I don't like a ton of what Goodell is doing to the NFL, but on this issue, I agree with him. When a team gives it's players incentive to injure to the point of carting off opposing players, that's pretty sick.
Bill Romanowski is loudly against the punishment handed out to the Saints. He says that he was taught throughout his football career to damage another player. He also ended the career of a teammate during practice by ripping off his teammate's helmet and punching him so hard as to cause damage to his eye socket.
Sometimes, you train a player to become a vicious animal, he behaves like a vicious animal.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 24, 2012 21:30:13 GMT -5
I agree with the punishment now that we know the Saints lied. That's really the central issue for me as the bounty itself is 'dicey' at best. But, since the league warned them about it and was willing to forgive anything previous and the Saints still lied, then yes...they deserve the punishment they got.
Unfortunately, that's not how the media presented it early on. They presented it as the Saints copped to it immediately (and Gregg Williams did admit to it when the story broke, but obviously after he lied about it to the league).
It's dicey because it doesn't say that you get paid for illegal hits. In fact, part of the bounty was a fine for players who do get penalized. And in football, nobody is making a legal, textbook tackle and just getting the ball carrier down if they have a shot to legally obliterate the ball carrier. Pain and violence is part of the game, whether the NFL likes it or not.
It's not like basketball where for the most part, a 'foul' isn't going to even hurt a player. Good clean hits hurt. And in every game there are players trying to hit the player as hard as they possibly can while doing it legally.
So it gets dicey when you have a team that is possibly inferring taking illegal shots to injure players and a league that is inferring that their players are not supposed to hit players as hard as they legally can.
That being said, it's hard for me to take the league seriously when they make a statement about the coverup being the issue when they helped the Pats coverup SpyGate.
Yes, two wrongs don't make a right. But, correcting one wrong doesn't mean that the other one should go away either.
3JACK
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Post by kamandi on Mar 25, 2012 2:54:17 GMT -5
I do agree with you about the Pats.
If I'm not mistaken, Goodell even had the evidence destroyed. I don't agree with it, but it was partly damage control, partly protecting the image of one of the NFL's primary faces ... the New England Patriots.
Imagine if the evidence could be linked directly to regular or post season wins, and it had enough of an impact where the Patriots' Superbowl wins could come into question .... that would be a travesty and embarrassment that the league wouldn't be able to fix, so they chose instead to cover it up.
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Post by 94monarch on Mar 25, 2012 18:44:46 GMT -5
You cannot have one man be judge, jury and executioner...It is just not right and I disagree with it. I disliked his decisions on Harrison, PacMan and Peyton. There is basically no due process and I think that is wrong.
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