Brian Manzella's ideas on Trackman teaching

[imperfectgolfer]

I have noted that Brian believes very strongly that using a Trackman has revolutionized his golf instructional teaching. I don't understand how, and he has never explained how a Trackman has changed his golf instructional teaching re: the movement of the body/arms/hands/clubshaft in space.

For example, he started this thread.

www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13222-look-my-trackman-influenced-swing-changes.html

In that thread, one can see a swing video of his swing. However, he doesn't state what he is doing differently!

If one looks at his swing pattern, he has a reverse slot backswing swing style.



The red arced path represents his clubhead path. It goes inside-and-up in the backswing and loops over in the downswing - very typical for a reverse slot swing style.

At impact, his hands/clubshaft are on a plane that is intermediate between the hand plane (yellow line) and the TSP (blue line).

What I do not understand is whether this swing pattern is different to his previous swing pattern (before he used a Trackman).

He discusses this swing video in another thread.

www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/13228-zero-land-2.html

There is a 9:50 minute video answer where he discusses his swing (and comments made about his swing). Surprisingly, he states that he doesn't even know what's a reverse loop, and he doesn't care whether he has a reverse slot swing style. I think that it's OK to have a reverse slot swing style (rather than a standard or single plane reverse slot swing style). What I would like to know is what Brian is doing differently - in terms of changes in his body, or arm, or hand or clubshaft movement in his Trackman-monitored swing (compared to his old swing). Does anybody know the answer? Does anybody understand how a Trackman device enables a golf instructor to change a golfer's body/arm/hand/clubshaft movements in space in a way that wasn't previously possible in the pre-Trackman era?

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

I am with you Jeff

Maybe he is being vague because he likes to change his patterns so much?

As far as I can tell it almost sounds like a teacher reads the numbers tells a student to make "x" change, rehit the ball and if the numbers improve then the student has improved.

Honestly I appreciate the numbers and Brian's excitement over how it can help....and I would imagine he was just as excited over the line drawing video programs that he rails against at one point in his career.

I have no clue how it makes people better, at least the average of the U.S. which has a 20 handicap.

I would love to see the Manzella take a student, give him a lesson with Trackman, just to see how its done.

I have seen Kevin Shields and Brian hit balls, show the zero's, but its an incomplete picture for me. I am slow.

[Richie3Jack]

Perhaps they are vague because they don't want to give away too much of their teaching. I think teachers should give away a lot of their thoughts for free, but I can certainly understand keeping some things close to the vest.

I personally think it has revolutionized teaching.

It's confirmed the new ball flight laws.

It's showed the impact that attack angle....not so much vertical swing plane...has on the flight of the ball. Forget about golfers who hit up on their driver, going from say -4* attack angle with the driver to -1* can provide a much longer shot. The July 2009 Trackman newsletter showed Kevin Streelman greatly improving his distance, accuracy and consistency with the driver while swinging at the same clubhead speed, but just changing the attack angle.

I don't think I would've ever considered this before.

It's shown the dangers of swinging out to rightfield, which is a popular mantra of many TGM AI's. Many of the members here understand how swinging out to the right can get a golfer off plane post impact, but most golfers and teacher have little clue about that.

For the student and the teacher, they can use this knowledge and incorporate feels much more easily to get the swing they are striving for. I think that is HUGE.

It's not the be all end all, but I do think it has revolutionized teaching and can take a pretty average or even mediocre teacher and make them much better. And I think for the good teachers, I think it can make them learn some new things and just make them even better than they are now.

But if you're a lousy teacher it's probably not going to do a lot of good until you get better informed and learn how to teach better.






3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

3jack,

You wrote-:- "It's shown the dangers of swinging out to rightfield, which is a popular mantra of many TGM AI's. Many of the members here understand how swinging out to the right can get a golfer off plane post impact, but most golfers and teacher have little clue about that."

I don't need a Trackman device to know that one should not hit out to right-field. Homer Kelley's TGM concepts have already taught a golfer to trace a SPL, and a golfer still needs to generate a symmetrical in-to-square-to-in clubhead path (relative to the base of the inclined plane - HSP). It is true that Trackman research results have taught a golfer that he needs to aim his HSP to the left when hitting down on the ball, and to aim his HSP to the right when hitting up on the ball - but he is still swinging in the same way (tracing a SPL and generating an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path relative to the HSP). There is no "new" change in the way a golfer moves his body/arms/hands/clubshaft in space as a result of these "new" ball flight laws. There is only a "new" understanding of the interaction of clubface orientation and "true" clubhead path (based on a deeper understanding of D-plane theory).

Brian is free to keep his golf instructional theories secret, but I still cannot understand how a Trackman will change any golf instructor's teaching regarding the movements of a human golfer's body/arms in space.

Jeff.

[jonnygrouville]

Would be fascinating to see how this is used in a lesson. I can definitely see the benefit for the number-hungry agnostic - when you make these changes (whatever they may be) to how you move your body and arms in space, here are the numbers to show you it improved impact (in very general terms). If the ball flight can not give you that feedback.

In that case, it might be better for the better golfer, the kind that has developed a swing that can fool the ball into flying straight the majority of the time. The successful flipper would be an example. This data could show how and why that is achieved and provide some insight into the conditions that lead to the shots that don't kid the ball. If you don't trust your teacher...

I see the point though. Trackman isn't going to tell you what to change in your movements of the body and arms in space.

Brian says he hit 1,500 ('not very many'!) balls with the device. Not many people are going to have this luxury. A less knowledgable person could plug away with their own swing and produce the figures. This is Brian performing Brian's swing to produce the figures. I do not think it is posted as a model to follow.

However, it is interesting to hear the colleagues of Brian commented on how smooth his swing was after this time. Saying it looked 'simpler' is fine, but doesn't help much. He says he was not thinking mechanically, he was just look for 'good numbers', he was just hitting balls.

Again we need amateur before and after figures, in Brian's case putting a new student on Trackman, going through the prescribed patter and series of lessons then posting the results. In some ways, this will be more effective than scores as a measure of success as we all know there is more to the game than technique.

[gmbtempe]

I guess I am just dubious how this is going to help the 99% of golfers, the ones who are not fanatics that post on message boards. I can't see it squaring their clubface or helping their low point control. I think it is a tool for the better player, one who can consistently hit the ball and ground correctly (for the record thats not me as of yet).

[Richie3Jack]

Jeff, I fully understand that swinging out to right field being hazardous is something you already comprehend.

But, many golfers AND teachers do not.

There's many that also cannot be convinced of this.

Trackman accomplishes both of those things.

John Graham is a good guy to ask on this because he's seen Brian give lessons using Trackman.





3JACK

[johngrahamgolf]

Feb 24, 2010 19:02:39 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

3jack,

You wrote-:- "It's shown the dangers of swinging out to rightfield, which is a popular mantra of many TGM AI's. Many of the members here understand how swinging out to the right can get a golfer off plane post impact, but most golfers and teacher have little clue about that."

I don't need a Trackman device to know that one should not hit out to right-field. Homer Kelley's TGM concepts have already taught a golfer to trace a SPL, and a golfer still needs to generate a symmetrical in-to-square-to-in clubhead path (relative to the base of the inclined plane - HSP). It is true that Trackman research results have taught a golfer that he needs to aim his HSP to the left when hitting down on the ball, and to aim his HSP to the right when hitting up on the ball - but he is still swinging in the same way (tracing a SPL and generating an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path relative to the HSP). There is no "new" change in the way a golfer moves his body/arms/hands/clubshaft in space as a result of these "new" ball flight laws. There is only a "new" understanding of the interaction of clubface orientation and "true" clubhead path (based on a deeper understanding of D-plane theory).

Brian is free to keep his golf instructional theories secret, but I still cannot understand how a Trackman will change any golf instructor's teaching regarding the movements of a human golfer's body/arms in space.

Jeff.

I assume you would use a similar argument against video?

[jonnygrouville]

What did video do for lessons? It showed students what they were doing. Now it is affordable, it is something they can use between lessons to monitor their own progress. Not many people have Trackman at home.

People had lessons and improved before Trackman and before video. The best lesson I ever had was from my home pro (ex-Ryder Cup) many years ago. No camera. Just golf balls. He tweaked a couple of things in my backswing then (I am honestly not making this up) had me feeling like I was swinging way to the left through the ball. Weird.

So how much better is a lesson with Trackman? Even more proof for the agnostic that the change being recommended is correct?

Or is this the difference between using video to produce nice looking swings and Trackman to make effective swings?

[imperfectgolfer]

John,

I would definitely not use the same argument against video, because a video shows a golfer what he is doing with his body/arms/hands/clubshaft in space, and that's what a beginner golfer needs to learn before he can make micro changes to optimize clubhead path/clubface orientation.

Could you please explain to me how a golf instructor can use a Trackman to teach a golfer to improve control of his body/arms/hands/clubshaft motion in space?

Thanks.

Jeff.

[johngrahamgolf]

Feb 25, 2010 0:39:10 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

John,

I would definitely not use the same argument against video, because a video shows a golfer what he is doing with his body/arms/hands/clubshaft in space, and that's what a beginner golfer needs to learn before he can make micro changes to optimize clubhead path/clubface orientation.

Could you please explain to me how a golf instructor can use a Trackman to teach a golfer to improve control of his body/arms/hands/clubshaft motion in space?

Thanks.

Jeff.

Jeff,

Here's an idea for a case study that I think would be very interesting. Hypothetical of course. Take two brand new golfers that have never hit a golf ball before. Try to make them as similar as possible in terms of assessment and abilities. Give one a video camera and a video of what the swing should look like from as many angles and speeds as needed.

Give the other person a trackman with averages and numbers about all the impact conditions necessary to produce a good impact.

Neither get any instruction.

Watch and see who gets better faster and who reaches a higher skill level.

I think it would be a very interesting case study.

Any and all feel free to take my idea and run with it.


Does watching a video of their swing tell them what to do with arms club in space? It may show them what they are doing and what someone else is doing but just like with trackman, neither is an end all be all. Teaching is the key in both cases. I think video is good for certain aspects and trackman is good for certain aspects.

[imperfectgolfer]

John,

Giving a beginner golfer a video of his swing would not help him improve, because he does not have any knowledge on how to interpret the video. He needs two things - i) golf instructional knowledge regarding video interpretation and ii) golf instructional knowledge on how to remedy his video-identified swing errors.

When I talk of swing errors, I am talking about the movement of the body/arms/hands/clubshaft in space. A golfer needs to learn how to move his body/arms/hands/clubshaft in space so that he can consistently i) generate an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path (relative to the baseline of his chosen impact plane) and ii) consistently square the clubface at impact.

If one gives a beginner golfer a Trackman device, and a knowledge of D-plane laws, I cannot imagine how he would learn to improve if his body/arms/hands do not move in space in the "correct" manner. If a beginner golfer cannot consistently generate an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path (relative to his desired HSP), and if he frequently either swings in-to-out, or out-to-in, through impact, then his Trackman numbers will be very inconsistent. I can imagine him getting very frustrated because of his inability to consistently generate "desirable" clubhead path and clubface orientation Trackman numbers - because he has not yet mastered the movement of his body/arms/hands in space.

By contrast, I think that a Trackman device could be very useful for a professional golfer, who has a consistent swing, and who wants to learn how to controllably draw/fade the ball.

Jeff.