Re-shafting vintage irons

[jessev]

I've been reading, searching all over for a precise and concise thread that would list the advantages and/or disadvantages of re-shafting vintage blades from the 50's, 60's and 70's with modern length shafts.

In most cases I believe the shaft length may increase by .5" and maybe up to to 1.5" to make vintage blades the same length as today's irons. I would think 1.5" would be an extreme, maybe not. Of course I could be wrong so please correct me if I am so that we have accurate information to proceed with our re-shafting projects. With this in mind we are not talking about drastic length changes, just trying to bring the length of a vintage iron in line with today's iron lengths.

Now there is a lot of great info here presented on this site by 3Jack and others, its just that it must be searched out and can be quite time consuming. Having one thread that list the pros/cons should be a good thing. Hopefully many will concur.

So given the premise that we have a set of 1969 Hogan Bounce 1+ irons or a set of 1971 Wilson Dyna-Power Button backs, or a set of 1957 Hogan Precision irons and we want to have them re-shafted.

What are the advantages of making the shafts longer, using today's standard length?

How will lengthening the shaft affect distance and/or accuracy?

What are the disadvantages of putting a longer shaft in a vintage iron head, if there are any?

If we have a set that has regular shafts in them, is there a disadvantage to changing the regular shafts to stiff?

[Richie3Jack]

I've found that in general, you'll wind up making the shafts about 1/4" to 1/2" longer to get them to the modern day 'standard.' I believe the 'modern day standard' is at 37.75 inches with no grip on a 5-iron and 38 inches with a grip on the 5-iron.

If we take a look at distance, according to Tom Wishon...provided everything else is the same we really don't see any difference in distance if a club is shorter or longer than 1/2". Even at 1/2" it's pretty minimal.

So, if you add 1/2" on the shafts, from a distance perspective I wouldn't worry about it too much....except:

There's a good chance that adding 1/2" will make the irons very heavy. I experimented this with a spare 1967 Hogan Percussion 5-iron that I added a 1" of shaft length (I play +1/2", which is 38.5" for a 5-iron with the grip on). I wound up installing that and found that the swingweight was D-8 and the MOI was at 2,795 kg/cm^2.

That indicates to me that the head is quite heavy. However, I did install a 130g KBS Tour shaft and I think the shaft in it was more like 115 g, which makes a sizeable difference.

To me, that's the most difficult thing to overcome with re-shaft vintage irons....the MOI. I re-shafted a 1972 Hogan Apex 2-iron with a Dynamic Gold XP shaft and the MOI came out to something like 2,575. I play at 2,725, so I had to add a ton of lead tape to the club.

Personally, I think one can do it...and I promise that one day I will get my irons re-chromed at the Iron Factory. But, you will probably wind up fiddling around with the right shaft that is not too heavy, but also has a bend profile that fits your swing. The only reason why I wouldn't game the 1967 Percussions even if I got them re-chromed and re-shafted is that they have 0-degrees of bounce which is too difficult to play with on Florida Bermuda grass.





3JACK

[jessev]

Great info 3Jack!

Did the lengthening the shaft affect accuracy at all?

I'm not familiar with MOI enough to know how MOI and swing weight correlate to each other. I will have to study up on MOI.

What did you find the swing weight to be in the Apex 2I with the DG XP shaft?

It is interesting that you mention zero bounce and Bermuda grass. If you swing on a flatter plane does gaming a vintage iron become more or less of a challenge?

[Richie3Jack]

Jun 3, 2012 11:05:45 GMT -5 jessev said:

Great info 3Jack!

Did the lengthening the shaft affect accuracy at all?

No, didn't affect it at all.

I'm not familiar with MOI enough to know how MOI and swing weight correlate to each other. I will have to study up on MOI.

If you MOI-match a set of irons, the swingweight will progressively increase by about 0.6 to 0.8 swingweight points. IMO, any semi-serious golfer should learn about MOI and MOI-matching. It's almost a cruel irony to see people worry about swingweight and swingweight matching, then neglect MOI and MOI matching because MOI matching does what swingweight is supposed to do, it just does a much more accurate job of it. And what people don't realize is that the benefit of getting every club to truly feel the same when we swing them is that is greatly improves face contact dispersion.

What did you find the swing weight to be in the Apex 2I with the DG XP shaft?

C-9

I then added a boatload of leadtape to it to get it to about D-3.

Cloran ran into a similar problem with some old Hogan Apex PC irons. He installed DG S400 shafts and they came out to B-8 swingweight.

It is interesting that you mention zero bounce and Bermuda grass. If you swing on a flatter plane does gaming a vintage iron become more or less of a challenge?

No.

A little shallower attack angle will help because you're not taking such a big divot.













3JACK

[jessev]

Thank You 3Jack.

I think we've already supplied some great information here. I appreciate you taking your time to contribute as you are well respected and well known when it comes to matters of the golf swing and clubs.

Its good to know about accuracy not being affected, however the swing weight being so drastically affected is a huge concern.

Would adding weight to the down shaft before putting a grip on the club assist in solving the swing weight problem in the 2I?

Would using a tip weight, not sure of the nomenclature, help bring swing weight back up.

Would adding weight under the grip, using lead tape is all I know, help with swing weight in the 5I? Is this practical.

So a 2I becomes lighter because of the longer shaft, yet, because of the shorter shaft I'm sure, the 5I becomes a little heavy. I know that has to do with shaft lengths and a 2I head must weigh slightly less than a 5I head as well.

In trying to match MOI or swing weight across the set are there any helpful tips you or anyone would think helpful to this discussion?

hmmm, we could almost start a club building thread here in a minute.

I'm just concerned with bringing back some of the old vintage iron and putting them back into play. Of course some should be hung on a wall just to be looked at. But some, should be played and if we can bring them back to their original purpose. I think thats a good thing.

The more information we bring to the masses, the more we can keep the traditions of this grand game we love alive!

Jesse

[Richie3Jack]

Jun 3, 2012 17:35:56 GMT -5 jessev said:

Would adding weight to the down shaft before putting a grip on the club assist in solving the swing weight problem in the 2I?

Too light means you have to add weight to the head. Adding weight to mid-section of the shaft or the grip won't help with MOI or swingweight (much)

Would using a tip weight, not sure of the nomenclature, help bring swing weight back up.

Yes or using lead tape on the had.

There are some people who worry about adding weight with a hosel weight. That's because they think it's too much weight towards the heel. Thus, the idea is that the heel will lag behind the toe too much thru impact, causing a closed clubface at impact.

But, according to Wishon his research shows that it takes about 12-grams added in hosel weight to show even a minute alteration. Generally, if you have to add that much...you need to look at a heavier shaft.

Would adding weight under the grip, using lead tape is all I know, help with swing weight in the 5I? Is this practical.

No. Adding weight towards the grip actually causes the swingweight to get lighter. With MOI, it will practically stay the same.

That's one of the reasons why swingweight is faulty...add weight towards the grip...the SW goes down.

I can take 2 Ping 6-irons, same clubhead and everything. Make them the same length. Put a 130g shaft in one club and a 110g shaft in the other club. And you can still manipulate the clubs to have the same swingweight. We'll say D-2. You can add weight to the grip end of the 130g shaft to get that swingweight to match the 110g shaft. Problem is, they won't feel the same. Why? Flaws in swingweight. The MOI would be different between the 6-irons. Better representation of the amount of force required to swing each club.

I saw this first hand at the 2012 PGA Merchandise show. The vendors would often put labels on their clubs to show the swingweight. I went to some shaft vendors who had graphite shafted D-2 swingweights in their irons and steel shafted D-2 irons. both felt very different.

So a 2I becomes lighter because of the longer shaft, yet, because of the shorter shaft I'm sure, the 5I becomes a little heavy. I know that has to do with shaft lengths and a 2I head must weigh slightly less than a 5I head as well.

Longer shaft makes the club *heavier*. But, what companies do is they make the higher lofted clubheads *heavier*.

Here's a look at Wishon's club specs for the 555C irons. Take a look at their weights:



So you have 'more shaft' with a 3-iron, but the head weighs a lot less than say a shorter length, 9-iron.

In trying to match MOI or swing weight across the set are there any helpful tips you or anyone would think helpful to this discussion?

hmmm, we could almost start a club building thread here in a minute.
I'm just concerned with bringing back some of the old vintage iron and putting them back into play. Of course some should be hung on a wall just to be looked at. But some, should be played and if we can bring them back to their original purpose. I think thats a good thing.

I really don't even bother with swingweight. MOI matching is just by far and away better. I've only had a couple of potential customers not like it, but they were struggling with their swing so badly (one had the shanks), that it didn't matter whether you MOI or swingweight matched. I don't feel comfortable fitting somebody and selling the clubs that I know they are not close to swinging it at least decent.

The only type of golfers who I think MOI would not be good for are the types like Moe Norman, Ben Hogan and Mac.O.Grady who hit the ball to a size of a nickel on the face.






3JACK

[bbbrisco]

The only type of golfers who I think MOI would not be good for are the types like Moe Norman, Ben Hogan and Mac.O.Grady who hit the ball to a size of a nickel on the face.


Any opinion on Tutelman's theory that MOI-matching works better for people who play with a constant ball position, as opposed to people who move the iron back in their stance as they get to shorter clubs?

www.tutelman.com/golf/clubs/MOImatchRecent.php

I haven't been able to get my hands on a MOI-matched set yet, since I'm still debating forking out for the Auditor (and the only clubmaker within an hours drive who had one retired last year - I'm also now without a reliable dude to bend irons!).

Perhaps I'm lucky in that my Ping I20's were mistakenly SW'd to D0 (instead of D3 as requested) - I imagine copious amounts of lead tape could let me MOI match them myself. I guess I just need to get my hands on some impact stickers and get out to the range.

Also, back to vintage irons. Has anyone else had issues with older irons being 'too soft' I have a beloved set of FG17's, but last time I had them in the bag I noticed they were bending back, and getting a lop-sided gap on the front edge of the ferrule. Not sure if it was from hitting too many balls off the range mats or firm ground (also at the range). Anyone else ever see this? I wonder if it's an issue with the hosels being too soft, or the 30 year old DG S300 shafts going bad.

[Richie3Jack]

I don't agree with Tutleman based on my experience. I can see where he's coming from, but in the end MOI is about the amount of force you apply to the club on your golf swing and the amount of force required to swing the club.

If you apply more force than the club requires (too light of a club), it will throw you off. Imagine swinging a matchstick at full speed, you will probably have a very difficult time controlling the sweespot of the club. Conversely, too heavy is like swinging a sledgehammer and the 'club swings you instead of you swinging the club.'

Recently a member here (not sure if they want their name posted) came to me wondering why they topped a 3-wood all of the sudden that they had re-shafted. I guessed that their MOI was way off. And from my experience with 3-woods is that the MOI was too low (aka too light). Well I was wrong in one regard, the club wasn't too light. It was way too heavy for them. The swingweight came out to E-5, which means that the MOI was almost likely extremely high as well. No small wonder he kept topping it.

I'll send you a PM on this.






3JACK

[jessev]

So, We we have learned

1. Lengthening vintage irons even by .25 to .5 " may not be an optimal solution.
2. Longer shaftss should not effect accuracy but will not necessarily lead to more distance.
3. Adjusting swing weight using tungsten powder down the shaft or a hosel weight is not recommended as a optimal solution.
4. Staying with in standard shaft length specs is desired.
(Note: If you were a taller player and required longer shafts, what did you do?)
5. Maintaining a viable swing weight is of concern with longer shafts.
6. If can MOI match that would be better.
7. Shaft Weight and length must be considered when modernizing a Vintage Blade.
8. Flat swing plane is okay for all courses when gaming vintage blades because of bounce of club or lack there of. If steep armsy swinger forget about it.

Question: What would anyone do to modernize a vintage blade? If anything?

[cloran]

Keep in mind that some of the vintage shafts (aluminum aside) are great. I just finished building a set of irons by putting vintage Apex 4s into modern heads... hmmmmm... (I'm going to detail things in an upcoming thread, but here's a teaser... What happens when the swing weight scale moves past E...F... I had to find out.)

"Optimal" hasn't been defined to my satisfaction yet.

I don't believe Nicklaus swung on a flat plane... he did ok with vintage gear, on all kinds of courses, under every possible condition.

What are standard length specs? Standard for which generation? Manufactuer?

[Richie3Jack]

Jun 4, 2012 21:19:01 GMT -5 jessev said:

So, We we have learned

1. Lengthening vintage irons even by .25 to .5 " may not be an optimal solution.

You will want irons that fit your swing, but also your body dimensions. It's a real problem I have with the clubfitting industry in that so many clubfitters go solely by the swing. That assumes that you will swing the same way over time. This is in particular difficult for golfers who want clubs that fit them now, but are looking to improve their swing. If they go with clubs that are horribly 'un-fit' for them, they will struggle out on the course and struggle to make improvements in their swing.

I would recommend getting irons that are the correct length for your posture at address along with your body dimensions.

I use a 'standard' of the 5-iron being 38 inches long (with grip). Then from there, the 'standard' is going in 1/2 inch increments. However, you can use different increments like 3/8 inch.

However, there can be problems with making the shaft longer or shorter. This will affect the heft of the club. So if you're 6'4" tall and you truly need about +3/4" inch longer shafts in your irons for your *posture*, you may have issues with your swing dealing with the added heft of the club.

We have to consider EVERYTHING when it comes to the heft of the club, from the weight of the shaft, clubhead, grip, etc. Vintage blades were usually about 1/4" shorter in length. So the old 5-irons were usually about 37-3/4" long with grip compared to the 38 inches long with grip of today's irons. Due to that difference in shaft lengthy, typically vintage blades have heavier clubheads.

But, if you're a golfer who is tall and looking to have a 38.5" 5-iron shaft (w/grip), now you are effectively adding +3/4" long shaft than what the vintage blades were originally built for.

It has NOTHING to do with 'optimal.' It has to do with the possible pitfalls of trying to modernize a vintage blade. If you add new shafts and make the shafts longer than the vintage blades were originally designed for...you *may* have a problem with the heft of the club.

But, I think you should fit for the proper length first, before fitting for the heft of the club.

2. Longer shaftss should not effect accuracy but will not necessarily lead to more distance.

Yes. By itself, this is correct.

3. Adjusting swing weight using tungsten powder down the shaft or a hosel weight is not recommended as a optimal solution

Nope. Never said that.

You can use whatever you want to get the club's heft where you want it. The only thing about powder is that sometimes it loses its compact nature and lead tape can wear away over time. That and lead tape may not be preferred from a cosmetic standpoint.

4. Staying with in standard shaft length specs is desired.
(Note: If you were a taller player and required longer shafts, what did you do?)

Nope. Never said that.

Finding the length of club that fits your swing and body dimensions is desired.

The problem is that too many people are too quick to add length to their clubs when it's really not needed and they don't understand the pitfalls of adding that length to their irons.

5. Maintaining a viable swing weight is of concern with longer shafts.

No.

When you MOI match your irons, if you THEN go out and measure the swingweight, the swingweight will increase by about 0.6 to 0.8 swingweight points per club.

People who play with longer shafts tend to have to worry about those longer shafts being too heavy for them.

If you play with standard shafts, the clubs may be too heavy or too light for you. Your 3-iron may be too heavy and your 9-iron may be too light while your 4-iron may be on the money.

With MOI fitting, it's determine the amount of force required to swing a club. You then want to match that up with the amount of force you apply when you swing the club.

It doesn't matter if you use longer, standard or shorter shafts...the MOI of the clubs will vary unless the clubfitter has matched them up. And golfers who play with longer shafts can suffer from the same issues with the heft of the club as golfers who play a 'standard' shaft length.

6. If can MOI match that would be better.

Yes.

MOI fitting and matching is to swingweight fitting and matching as titanium is to persimmon.

7. Shaft Weight and length must be considered when modernizing a Vintage Blade.

Also, clubhead weight and is the shaft tip heavy or butt heavy.

8. Flat swing plane is okay for all courses when gaming vintage blades because of bounce of club or lack there of. If steep armsy swinger forget about it.

That's crap.

Tom Watson was a steep shaft plane golfer who 'picked' the ball around the course. Lee Trevino was a flat shaft plane golfer who took gargantuan divots.

It has to do with the attack angle, which is really viewed from the caddy view than the shaft plane angle on the downswing. And I know that Trevino won the Citrus Open, played in Orlando Florida.

Question: What would anyone do to modernize a vintage blade? If anything?

You can put in a modern shaft and get the length and lie angle where you want it. You can also MOI match them with modern grips.

It's just...tricky.

I would recommend if you want to 'modernize' vintage blades you should disassemble the shafts from the heads. Then measure the head weights in grams. Hopefully you should see the head weights in increments. The higher the loft the head, the heavier it should weigh.

I would then use the 6-iron as your 'experiment' club. I would purchase the modern shaft you like. I would just purchase 1 shaft for that 6-iron. I would assemble the shaft and see what it is like. If you assemble it to the length you want the shafts, you may find that it's too heavy for you. If it's too light...that's actually okay...just add lead tape. If it's too heavy, look for a lighter shaft or perhaps a shaft that is more butt heavy.





3JACK

[jessev]

3Jack - You last post was excellent. All fine points to consider and be aware of.

Exactly what I was hoping for when I started this thread

Please note some of what I was saying is what I have been reading else where, not just from you. Sorry I should have made my self clearer on that.

Having your replies to either dispel or confirm what I am learning is exactly what I was looking for. I'm not a club builder and am new to vintage irons so I am trying to get as much concise information in one spot so that others like me will have a reputable place to go when looking for this type of information.

If believe the myth's or misinformation, think of what others like me are going through.

I know you to be very knowledgeable in club building and also a lover of vintage irons, that is why I chose your site to pull this information together.

Thank you for your valuable input.

Cloran, Thank you as well. Looking forward to your upcoming thread on the subject.

Jesse

[jessev]

3Jack

This is the best advice I have read anywhere.

"You can put in a modern shaft and get the length and lie angle where you want it. You can also MOI match them with modern grips.

It's just...tricky.

I would recommend if you want to 'modernize' vintage blades you should disassemble the shafts from the heads. Then measure the head weights in grams. Hopefully you should see the head weights in increments. The higher the loft the head, the heavier it should weigh.

I would then use the 6-iron as your 'experiment' club. I would purchase the modern shaft you like. I would just purchase 1 shaft for that 6-iron. I would assemble the shaft and see what it is like. If you assemble it to the length you want the shafts, you may find that it's too heavy for you. If it's too light...that's actually okay...just add lead tape. If it's too heavy, look for a lighter shaft or perhaps a shaft that is more butt heavy." - Richie3JACK

Also everything you have laid out here is great advice and should be excellent information for those of us new to Vintage irons.

[Richie3Jack]

I think if you’re really interested in understanding equipment, it’s a ‘participation sport.’ You have to not only read and learn, but you have to get involved yourself and try some things. And inevitably it usually requires quite a bit of experimentation.

I think it’s really good to know the head weights.

Only a few of the component companies I know give headweight measurements like Wishon, KZG, Maltby, and GolfSmith. I don’t know if the OEM’s do. I’ve never seen an OEM Web site that has them. Maybe if you ask. I think the fear is that the OEM’s will feel like they need to keep the heads close to what their specs say. Wishon’s heads don’t exactly measure up to what they say on the spec sheet. But, Wishon measures the weight of each head and then prints them on top of the plastic wrapper. The last set of iron heads I got from Wishon, the increments in weight of the heads were 7-9 grams.

Where you can get really screwed with OEM heads, even vintage blades, is if the higher lofted iron head weighs less than a lower lofted iron head. I’ve had that happen a few times. The MOI gets messed up badly, but the swingweight will be the same. Or sometimes the clubfitter will add a strip or two of lead tape to get the swingweight the same, but the MOI will still be way off.

I actually believe that the right irons and specs for a golf swing are pretty easy to find. The tricky part is to ‘give the golfer room’ to improve and then letting the golfer understand that if they improve, they’ll have to alter their specs.

If you fit a golfer to a +5* upright lie angles, I just think you are setting them up to make their swing worse over time. I have a friend who is my height, but he’s all legs and carries +1.25” steel shafts in his Adams irons. He carries a 45.5” driver and he is constantly complaining about how heavy the irons feel and how every driver feels too light. I think he’s been clubfitted for misery. His MOI’s are off the chart and his effective lie angles on his irons are very upright.

I should know because I’ve gone from +5* upright lie angles at standard length to -6* flat lie angles to +1” shaft. I’ve gone thru the entire spectrum. Eventually I got fed up and decided to dig further knowing that the truth was out.

I have still been planning to modernize my 1967 Percussion irons. I think playing with vintage blades from time to time and some persimmons adds to the fun because it’s different. However, I really don’t want to play with vintage blades and persimmons that are so vastly different, specs wise….for what fits my swing which I think is pretty good right now.





3JACK

[jessev]

I know you've worked hard on your swing. I've read quite a lot of what you have written on the web and have run across your postings on so many sites. I always stop to read what you have to say.

I guess at some point I will have to take the plunge and start tinkering on my own. On one hand I'm apprehensive about messing up a good club on the other I want to be knowledgeable when dealing with a fitter when I know what I want built.

I ran into a bad fitter and am a little nervous about the whole process. I'm trying to learn as much as I can so I don't get snookered again. I also would hate messing up one of my Hogan Bounce Sole 1+ irons. I found them and got them with the intention of selling, now I want to keep them and get them fixed up for regular play and I want to make sure they're done right.

I know more about modern gear and shafts lengths, lie and loft angles and all that, but how it translates to vintage gear is what I'm trying to grasp.

It almost seems the best way to make sure my vintage stuff is right is to get it MOI fit. On one hand I'd like to do it myself, on the other I can't do MOI, don't have anywhere near the tools or the expertise. But finding an MOI builder, that may be the ticket.

I was checking my modern muscle back PW, my Wishon 555M against a Wilson 1971 button back, they are the same length, my Wishon 550C 5I is roughly one inch longer than the Wilson 5I, Comparing 7I's 550C Wishon is longer by about a 1/2". Does that sound right? PW's are the same length?

Anyway I'm learning.