Anna Rawson's swing style

[imperfectgolfer]

I have noted that Dana teaches Anna Rawson.

I had never previously studied her swing, which was posted in Dana's introductory thread.

Here is a link - www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bloWBVNHBE

It states at the top of the U-tube video - "S&T swing".

I cannot see any S&T swing methodology in her swing. I think that she looks much closer to a VJ Trolio clone in the sense that she moves her pelvis/weight leftwards during the backswing, so that she is loaded over the left leg at the end-backswing - while maintaining a rightwards-tilted spine. She is therefore using a rightwards-centered backswing action, rather than a leftwards-centered backswing action. She also uses a Hogan-style "left hip clearing action" (like VJ Trolio) rather than the S&T pelvic slide action that moves the outer border of the left pelvis outside the left foot in the late downswing/followthrough.

What do you think?

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

I put up both of them up on V1 to do a side by side

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lLdfXgwgWo

P1 - Dana is much closer to the Bennett model at setup with hands closer to impact and he flares his right foot more. The spines and head setup are very close

P2 - very similar but it looks again like Dana is closer to Bennett in the way he moves the right arm which does not come at all off his right side while there is a small gap in Anna's. I cant really see the clubface to say its postion.

P3 -I actually think Dana has more rightwards spinal tilt at this point than Anna who is already pretty vertical. It looks like Dana turns his left shoulder more down than she does. It looks like her right hip is already much higher than her left

P4 - At the top they both look pretty stacked with their spines, I dont see a lot of that extension talked about in the book, maybe its the camera angle. I just dont see the Trolio motion in her swing it just looks very centralized. I agree that there is not the pelvic motion forward like there is in Dana's swing.

P5 - P7 I just like the positions from the face on that Dana is in. Anna is out of position with the club at P6 as she is late with her hands. She is using all her athleticism to get them to catch up but I much prefer the impact position that Dana has. Her footwork looks off as well, much more traditional where Dana's right foot banks much closer to the model.

[mudball]

Jeff,

You may be right but I tend to disagree. Key aspects of the S&T swing are:
Keep the weight forward and move the weight even further forward in the backswing and then move it forward some more in the forward swing.
Her left leg breaks in the backswing.
Her right leg appears to straighten somewhat. Although granted not a lot.
They talk about swinging in a circle around a fixed point rather than an eliptical shape with the centre moving back away from the target.
I think the key things is she is trying (or appears to be trying - I've not chatted to her about it ) to adopt S&T components.

I think it is also fair to say that during a transitional phase when learning something new - you might feel like you are doing x but in fact be doing y. I think the feeling like you are doing x is as important as actually doing x. Do you see my point?

Also I am now a S&T golfer like Anna - and I've noticed a common theme - we are all hot!
;D

Dave

[vjsinger]

Dana,

I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling us if you use the SAM Lab balance board/system(or other comparable systems), and if you could tell us the numbers at the top of both Anna's swing and yours?

Thanks,
VJ

[gmbtempe]

I actively encourage Jeff to continue breaking down Anna's swing to the finest degree (:

[imperfectgolfer]

Dave,

You wrote that the following are key features of the S&T swing.

"Keep the weight forward and move the weight even further forward in the backswing and then move it forward some more in the forward swing.
Her left leg breaks in the backswing.
Her right leg appears to straighten somewhat. Although granted not a lot."

Those three features are also very characteristic of the VJ Trolio swing style, so they cannot be the "key" features that differentiate the S&T swing style from the VJ Trolio swing style. There are certain key features that differentiate the S&T swing from the VJ Trolio swing, but they are not on your list.

I think that a swing style must be judged by its features under execution, and not by a golfer's intent. Many golfers attempt to adopt a S&T swing style, but end up swinging like VJ Trolio, and that's probably why they hit the ball so solidly. VJ Trolio has a very solid ball-striking action.

See - www.youtube.com/watch#v=SM8zE1s5qf4

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

You wrote-: " I just don't see the Trolio motion in her swing it just looks very centralized."

What Trolio motion do you not see in her swing?

Here is VJ Trolio's swing - www.youtube.com/watch#v=SM8zE1s5qf4

Jeff.

[mudball]

Jeff,

"I think that a swing style must be judged by its features under execution, and not by a golfer's intent. Many golfers attempt to adopt a S&T swing style, but end up swinging like VJ Trolio, and that's probably why they hit the ball so solidly. VJ Trolio has a very solid ball-striking action."

We should ask them. But I suspect they would say VJ Trolio has many fine components to his swing. His head does move a little off the ball but I think it is broadly in line with what they are saying. (They being Andy Plummer and Mike Bennett).

But I do disagree with your point about judged under execution. You see if you have been doing something a particular way and developed a habit - then to change that habit you really have to work at it for a long time. I don't think that in every case you go from doing something one way to the new way overnight. But the intent is there and the swing is changing. So back to Anna - I think she is working on something and her swing is in a transitional state. So I think it is not correct to say she's not doing S&T if that is what she is trying. I think the trying is as equally important as the actual executing. Instead I think there are varying degrees of achievement of the ideal. (The ideal being whatever you are setting as your goal).

[gmbtempe]

I don't see the active moving of her hips to the left starting at P2 which is where VJ talks about the shift, I would also say her spine is very central where I think VJ gets farther right. I would say the hip clearing motion is similar.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dave,

Your logic escapes me.

You wrote-: "So back to Anna - I think she is working on something and her swing is in a transitional state. So I think it is not correct to say she's not doing S&T if that is what she is trying."

If Anna is attempting to adopt the S&T swing, but she hasn't yet achieved that intended goal, and she is only in a transition phase - then her swing should presently be judged as it is under execution in her transition phase.

During her "transition phase", I think that she is swinging more like VJ Trolio. I have no knowledge of her "intent" and I can only judge her swing as it is executed, and I actually believe that she should "stick to this executed swing" which is excellent. I would be dismayed to see her become a full-fledged S&T swinger - with i) a leftwards-centered backswing action and ii) an assertive left-lateral pelvic slide action needed to reverse the tilt and iii) a reverse-C finish action. I am biased and I think that it would be better if she retains her i) rightwards-centered backswing action; ii) her Hogan-style downswing pelvic action and iii) her erect "I" finish action.

Jeff.

[danadahlquist]

Feb 28, 2010 12:19:20 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

I have noted that Dana teaches Anna Rawson.

I had never previously studied her swing, which was posted in Dana's introductory thread.

Here is a link - www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bloWBVNHBE

It states at the top of the U-tube video - "S&T swing".

I cannot see any S&T swing methodology in her swing. I think that she looks much closer to a VJ Trolio clone in the sense that she moves her pelvis/weight leftwards during the backswing, so that she is loaded over the left leg at the end-backswing - while maintaining a rightwards-tilted spine. She is therefore using a rightwards-centered backswing action, rather than a leftwards-centered backswing action. She also uses a Hogan-style "left hip clearing action" (like VJ Trolio) rather than the S&T pelvic slide action that moves the outer border of the left pelvis outside the left foot in the late downswing/followthrough.

What do you think?

Jeff.

She just uses more hip turn, because her arms would go to up and out on the backswing. She has a slight rev-hip slide at P4 so she can hit max psh draws in her practice. Kinda like Troy. If and when later in the year she does not shift it too much, we will start working on the hip action.
Would also like to note she has a right foot issue, even TPI started working on the issue. Its been there for a long time. I hope that we can get that taken care off. She said shes had it in college.
Never changed her grip, never needed too. Yes its weaker.

[danadahlquist]

Feb 28, 2010 13:09:41 GMT -5 @vjsinger said:

Dana,

I wonder if you wouldn't mind telling us if you use the SAM Lab balance board/system(or other comparable systems), and if you could tell us the numbers at the top of both Anna's swing and yours?

Thanks,
VJ

VJ,
Im at 60% give or take forward at P3
72-75 at P4

[danadahlquist]

Ill put up a stock shot at a good angle this week. Don't mind if you guys hammer me

[mudball]

Feb 28, 2010 14:06:41 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Dave,

Your logic escapes me.

You wrote-: "So back to Anna - I think she is working on something and her swing is in a transitional state. So I think it is not correct to say she's not doing S&T if that is what she is trying."

If Anna is attempting to adopt the S&T swing, but she hasn't yet achieved that intended goal, and she is only in a transition phase - then her swing should presently be judged as it is under execution in her transition phase.

During her "transition phase", I think that she is swinging more like VJ Trolio. I have no knowledge of her "intent" and I can only judge her swing as it is executed, and I actually believe that she should "stick to this executed swing" which is excellent. I would be dismayed to see her become a full-fledged S&T swinger - with i) a leftwards-centered backswing action and ii) an assertive left-lateral pelvic slide action needed to reverse the tilt and iii) a reverse-C finish action. I am biased and I think that it would be better if she retains her i) rightwards-centered backswing action; ii) her Hogan-style downswing pelvic action and iii) her erect "I" finish action.

Jeff.

Jeff

I understand why my logic escapes you. I can accept that. Whether or not she should change her swing is a matter of opinion.

So my point is if someone is trying to adopt a particular move then that has a relevant impact on their swing even if they are not quite there yet.
For example the very act of trying to swing round a centre and keep weight forward is different to deliberately moving the weight back and tilting the body to the right (or away from the target). However there may be actual degrees of success of achieving it. At some point it becomes more like the move you are trying to achieve and less like the move you are not trying to do.
Likewise you may slip back to your old habit - so there is a frequency of achieving the move you are trying to make as well as the quality of that move. I don't think the body is like flicking a switch - I think you go through a transitional phase - might last 3 months or 5000 shots or something.

That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. But of course I accept I may not be right. Just feels that way to me in my personal experience.

[imperfectgolfer]

Dave - you wrote-: "So my point is if someone is trying to adopt a particular move then that has a relevant impact on their swing even if they are not quite there yet."

I agree.

However, I do not know in what direction AR is moving and how far she is in her transition phase from one swing style to another swing style.

I reviewed her swing in a swing analyser program.

I was wrong to state that she looked more like a VJ Trolio clone. She actually doesn't shift her pelvis that far leftwards during the late backswing, and she has a large amount of left-lateral pelvic shift during the downswing.



I placed red lines alongside her pelvis at address, and blue lines alongside her hat (head) - image 1.

You can see that he has a small amount of pelvic shift to the left in the backswing - image 2. However, it is smaller in magnitude compared to VJ Trolio.

By contrast, she has a large amount of left-lateral pelvic shift in the downswing - image 3.

Jeff.