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Post by playa on Jan 24, 2013 7:45:05 GMT -5
Well, here is mine. While most people immediately focus on the arms and wrists, I will focus, in my opinion correctly, from bottom up. Perhaps others have pointed out this previously, such as Kelvin/Jeffy etc, and even Hogan himself demonstrates the "concentration drill", the foundation is proper setup and rotation of the spine/hip unit. The fact that the mid section can do its job indicates that his legs are providing the necessary transfer of energy from the ground. With the legs, hip and the spine in place at the right sequence, his right elbow is severely leading the arm/shoulder/thorax unit into the hitting zone. As noted, if managed incorrectly, this motion complex may contact the ball with an open face. In my opinion, the more the right elbow leads, along with lateral bend and pelvic tilt, the more power the unit packs and the more power it may deliver. The flip side is that if done to the extreme, the more open the face it may result. In other words, the less the right elbow lead, the more prone to early wrist flip. The more the right elbow lead, the more prone to delayed release which is not a good thing either. So the question is: how did Hogan manage that? At least with Hogan--although we have to acknowledge potential limitations from angle of the one camera catching a xyz motion--I think there is supination of some degree, along with wrist flexion. Apparently it worked for him. But here is the catcher. We are all built differently. It is not necessarily the case where this combination of supination and flexion must be visually present in order to square the face. If Bubba and JS do it, it is not apparent to my eyes. Hogan concentration drill: www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQEHogan talking about his sequencing: www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0Bubba: not that much supination to my eyes, but less extension on wrist: www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDR1EuclMvoJS: again, not that much supination to my eyes either. similar action as Bubba, less wrist ext. www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ0dNIP-yoUHere is one without severe right elbow lead but a fine swing: www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DuFdLJn2wwAnother one without much right elbow lead but did ok, but more timing dependent as noted. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-m5SJQajBsc
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Post by jeffy on Jan 24, 2013 9:36:33 GMT -5
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Post by teeace on Jan 24, 2013 10:05:01 GMT -5
Jeffy, we have gone through this many times, but it's clear there was no early supination in Hogans DSW. Very clear as it would bring the face outside of the hands. Shaft flattening at transition is result of left forearm pronation and by that the face points to the sky. Now when just adding max bowing there the toe will point up and that means face is square. When that happens player just needs to rotate the whole arm around his vertical axis and let the CH drop. No mystery, no secret, just basic geometry of the golf swing. Adding supination to those movements will produce toe of the club meet the ball first if everything else remains the same. That Hogan avoided by keeping his right hip in and right hand under the left.
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Post by jeffy on Jan 24, 2013 10:36:55 GMT -5
Jeffy, we have gone through this many times, but it's clear there was no early supination in Hogans DSW. Very clear as it would bring the face outside of the hands. Shaft flattening at transition is result of left forearm pronation and by that the face points to the sky. Now when just adding max bowing there the toe will point up and that means face is square. When that happens player just needs to rotate the whole arm around his vertical axis and let the CH drop. No mystery, no secret, just basic geometry of the golf swing. Adding supination to those movements will produce toe of the club meet the ball first if everything else remains the same. That Hogan avoided by keeping his right hip in and right hand under the left. Yep, I know that's your position. Nevertheless, by my count, playa, golfer12, me and Kelvin all disagree with you. So, the current vote total is 4 to 1.
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Post by teeace on Jan 24, 2013 10:39:41 GMT -5
Jeffy, we have gone through this many times, but it's clear there was no early supination in Hogans DSW. Very clear as it would bring the face outside of the hands. Shaft flattening at transition is result of left forearm pronation and by that the face points to the sky. Now when just adding max bowing there the toe will point up and that means face is square. When that happens player just needs to rotate the whole arm around his vertical axis and let the CH drop. No mystery, no secret, just basic geometry of the golf swing. Adding supination to those movements will produce toe of the club meet the ball first if everything else remains the same. That Hogan avoided by keeping his right hip in and right hand under the left. Yep, I know that's your position. Nevertheless, by my count, playa, golfer12, me and Kelvin all disagree with you. So, the current vote total is 4 to 1. Actually you should read what Golfer12 just wrote in the other thread about this. He agrees with me
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Post by playa on Jan 24, 2013 10:57:19 GMT -5
Jeffy, we have gone through this many times, but it's clear there was no early supination in Hogans DSW. Very clear as it would bring the face outside of the hands. Shaft flattening at transition is result of left forearm pronation and by that the face points to the sky. Now when just adding max bowing there the toe will point up and that means face is square. When that happens player just needs to rotate the whole arm around his vertical axis and let the CH drop. No mystery, no secret, just basic geometry of the golf swing. Adding supination to those movements will produce toe of the club meet the ball first if everything else remains the same. That Hogan avoided by keeping his right hip in and right hand under the left. Conceivably I can see what you are saying and I agree, that, at transition when H drops to a lower plane, that motion has some element of left forearm pronation. I have no problem with that. The issue of contention is what happens after that. I believe something opposite is about to happen. To help to flatten the wrist and "pre-square" the face, he changes the direction of rotation of the left forearm from whatever degree of pronation to less so, if not neutral then some degree of supination. And the more he comes down into the impact area the more obviously supinated he is, at least easier to see with those old videos. In my opinion, with golf swing at impact, it is natural to pair up wrist flexion and supination, not wrist flexion with pronation. flexion with pronation is a rather interesting pose, like sticking out the butt of the shaft in an in to out path, like a holding pattern with an extremely opened face, as if trying to accomplish the most extreme slice. Again, short of talking and showing face to face in the same room, we could be misunderstanding each other.
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Post by natep on Jan 24, 2013 11:22:38 GMT -5
I knew playa had to be jeffy.
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Post by playa on Jan 24, 2013 11:37:55 GMT -5
I knew playa had to be jeffy. That's a meaningful entry, nate. I still don't quite understand this fascination with who is who. Can't blame you, nate, after all, Jeffy started it! Find something more constructive to do, will you? Just closed out my position in Apple. Not a bad call. Quick in, quick out, one hour, 19 k + dollars. And I even posted here couple times!
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Post by teeace on Jan 24, 2013 13:30:25 GMT -5
Jeffy, we have gone through this many times, but it's clear there was no early supination in Hogans DSW. Very clear as it would bring the face outside of the hands. Shaft flattening at transition is result of left forearm pronation and by that the face points to the sky. Now when just adding max bowing there the toe will point up and that means face is square. When that happens player just needs to rotate the whole arm around his vertical axis and let the CH drop. No mystery, no secret, just basic geometry of the golf swing. Adding supination to those movements will produce toe of the club meet the ball first if everything else remains the same. That Hogan avoided by keeping his right hip in and right hand under the left. Conceivably I can see what you are saying and I agree, that, at transition when H drops to a lower plane, that motion has some element of left forearm pronation. I have no problem with that. The issue of contention is what happens after that. I believe something opposite is about to happen. To help to flatten the wrist and "pre-square" the face, he changes the direction of rotation of the left forearm from whatever degree of pronation to less so, if not neutral then some degree of supination. And the more he comes down into the impact area the more obviously supinated he is, at least easier to see with those old videos. In my opinion, with golf swing at impact, it is natural to pair up wrist flexion and supination, not wrist flexion with pronation. flexion with pronation is a rather interesting pose, like sticking out the butt of the shaft in an in to out path, like a holding pattern with an extremely opened face, as if trying to accomplish the most extreme slice. Again, short of talking and showing face to face in the same room, we could be misunderstanding each other. Maybe this clears it out. And sorry about the quality as it was quickly made some time ago and I had no time to make it better. Please notice that timing and when those things really happen is not relevant in this video. Just once again showing isolated movements and putting them together in random order
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Post by playa on Jan 24, 2013 14:01:53 GMT -5
Hello teeace, thanks for the effort in showing what you meant. Actually we are on the same wavelength up to a point, so my earlier writing still applies. As I said earlier, I agree that to a point, the left arm was in pronation, as you demonstrate in the video. What happens afterwards is the key and possibly the source of confusion in the past when you discussed this with others like perhaps Jeffy. In this video, you then proceed to demonstrate a move that you call supination. You are correct, not only in correctly naming the action, but also in demonstration. But You demonstrate a very large supination. As you show and say, the clubhead actually flips to the "outside" What I have meant--perhaps others as well-- is that the supination move is much smaller than you have demonstrated, just enough to put a clubface-closing move on the shaft, but nothing as dramatic as you have demonstrated. Also, keep in mind that the "small" supination move occurs along with palmar flexion, so the final product does not have as much outside flip as shown. So, essentially we are talking about the same thing. Again, thanks for showing your green room and making the effort for clarification.
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Post by teeace on Jan 24, 2013 14:16:26 GMT -5
But You demonstrate a very large supination. As you show and say, the clubhead actually flips to the "outside" Thanks Playa, but I also showed straight face with fully pronated left forearm. That means that every degree supination added will produce more closed face. And I'm pretty sure no one can keep their forearm totally pronated when coming to impact as the inertia of the club is twisting it to the supinated direction. You meet those forces if you first do my door drill by keeping the club head all the time at your right side like this and then try to do the same with full speed and watch video how it goes. Swedish players has been doing that at least 20 years and I understand why. Muscular action is something else than what we see that happens. And that muscular action is what we have to learn, not copying positions.
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Post by playa on Jan 26, 2013 8:33:44 GMT -5
teeace, are you using your "body" to push the clubhead through the metal frame on the floor and holding your wrists?
I want to know what is the purpose of the exercise.
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Post by teeace on Jan 26, 2013 8:47:18 GMT -5
teeace, are you using your "body" to push the clubhead through the metal frame on the floor and holding your wrists? I want to know what is the purpose of the exercise. Actually not only holding the wrist, even bending the right wrist more and bringing the right elbow under the left. In geometry that is the way to get club head staying right while hands are going in. That is the muscular action that I know many pros are working on and no one never talks about.. because it will ruin hackers game totally as they can't use their bodies well enough. That has also been hidden before high speed cameras, because really soon after impact hands are slowing much (relative to the face direction) that the inertia of the club starts to twist them and we anyway end up to the situation that club head comes visible from DTL view from left side of our head at the FT. Once when that has been learned we also start to see it as it works bit differently an looks little different than if we let the face roll and get inside soon.
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Post by playa on Jan 26, 2013 8:53:21 GMT -5
So the right wrist does what from what?
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Post by teeace on Jan 26, 2013 9:11:47 GMT -5
So the right wrist does what from what? It bends more before impact and muscular action is to that direction. Just mirror image of left wrist bowing and what Hogan told us in 5L page 102. He just didn't show that right wrist there and talked about supination so people get confused.
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