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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 12, 2010 22:01:47 GMT -5
I particularly do not understand how handle position at address affects ball flight. Jeff. Handle forward makes the attack angle steeper (usually). Steeper attack angle moves the swing plane and path out to the right (provided you take your normal swing), thus you're more likely to draw the ball. Move the handle backwards, more towards mid-body, plane line will more naturally move left, promoting a fade. 3JACK ahh, thanks that does make some sense to me. So thats what Dana meant but raising the handle a bit to get some CF into the driver with Mike McNary.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 13, 2010 0:24:36 GMT -5
3jack
I do not understand your point of view.
I know of no biomechanical reason that a golfer's grip handle position at address will causally be responsible for impact alignments, or plane line variations.
TGM hitters start at impact fix (where the hands/handle are forward), and they can hit the ball straight, left or right from that position.
Many TGM swingers start with the handle at mid-body (adjusted address position) and they can hit the ball straight, left or right.
Jeff.
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 13, 2010 1:19:35 GMT -5
Shaft lean is changed by ball position. Hands are located at inside part of left leg. Ball moves back = more lean and ball more forward = less lean. Hands stay in same location. Ball position plays a huge part in how much and which way a ball curves.
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Post by Richie3Jack on Mar 13, 2010 9:10:03 GMT -5
iteach has what I'm thinking as well. It's really a ball position thing. For instance, if I play the ball naturally forward and want to hit a draw, I just wouldn't keep the same ball position and move the handle forward. I'd move the ball back to some degree and keep the handle forward. That steepens the attack angle and when you steepen the attack angle, that naturaly moves the club path right.
For example, if you have to hit a low punch shot under some trees and you move the ball back in your stance to keep it low, if executed pretty well the ball will usually go low with a small draw. That's because the attack angle steepened to keep the ball low and the club path naturally moved to the right and that imparts hook spin.
To me, the advantages of this is that somebody can make pretty much the same type of swing they normally do, just change ball position and the handle location a tad.
I probably work the ball more than most modern day golfers because I'm not super long and for the most part, me working the ball consists of:
1. Envisioning the shot in the pre-shot routine 2. 'Feeling' the swing 3. Changing the ball position and handle location a tad.
Now if I need to hit a shot with a lot of bend to it...and usually that happens when I'm in the rough, I will then start making big changes to my stance and think about what I'm doing a bit more.
3JACK
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 13, 2010 13:37:41 GMT -5
3jack,
I have no problem with the idea that ball position can be used to help a golfer selectively hit a fade or a draw. To hit a draw it makes sense to place the ball further back from low point, so that the clubhead is traveling more in-to-out at impact. However, I personally don't like the idea of swinging out-to-in through impact in order to hit a fade. I prefer the idea of always generating an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path, and then one can aim the baseline of the plane to the left left (move the HSP to the left) to hit a fade. To actually generate a fade ball flight, I prefer the idea of adjusting the clubface at address so that it will be slightly open to the clubhead path at impact + using angled hinging through impact. That should produce a fade pattern without needing to have an out-to-in clubhead path. To generate an out-to-in clubhead path via a CP release, means that a golfer is not tracing a SPL. I prefer the idea of always tracing a SPL whether hitting a straight ball, or a draw or a fade.
Finally, I do not believe that handle position/height at address has any relevance as an independent variable. It is only handle position at impact that has relevance.
Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 13, 2010 14:17:20 GMT -5
3jack, To generate an out-to-in clubhead path via a CP release, means that a golfer is not tracing a SPL. Jeff. Couple questions Jeff for my own understanding on plane lines (obviously separate than swing planes for clarity sake). A Square Plane Line (SPL) that you refer to would be swinging on a plane that is parallel to the ball target line, correct? A CP release is going to turn the plane line left of the ball target line. Since most CP players are going to fade the ball (Trevino, Hogan, Duval) isn't that a natural process? I would argue that those three players are up there in terms of the best iron players in the game, it seems like a very viable process for control of the swing plane and club face?
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 13, 2010 14:52:56 GMT -5
Greg, You wrote-: "A Square Plane Line (SPL) that you refer to would be swinging on a plane that is parallel to the ball target line, correct?" No! SPL = A straight plane line. I believe that a golfer should trace a SPL (which is the baseline of the inclined plane = HSP) to keep the clubshaft "on-plane" throughout the downswing and followthrough - whether the HSP is aimed left or right of the ball-target line, or aimed straight at the target. You wrote-: "A CP release is going to turn the plane line left of the ball target line. Since most CP players are going to fade the ball (Trevino, Hogan, Duval) isn't that a natural process?" You seem to be stating that a CP release turns the plane line left of the target, while the plane line in the downswing was still at the target. That would be equivalent to bending the plane line (HSP). I don't believe that a golfer should bend the plane line - I believe that a golfer should always trace the plane line (HSP) before and after impact. I don't think that Trevino bent the plane line to the left after impact. He stayed on-plane between the 3rd parallel and the 4th parallel. It only looks like he is swinging more left after impact, because his clubshaft is on such a shallow plane (horizontal plane) through impact. I think that Trevino is tracing a SPL, and therefore "on plane" between images 8-10. Jeff.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 13, 2010 15:35:04 GMT -5
See thats why I asked the question, as you laid it out I agree with your statements but I don't understand all the terms.
So if I am understanding a straight plane line does not have to be parallel to the ball target line, you can easily have it 10 degrees left of target. I would image the CP release adds more cut spin than a horizontal hinge action (think TGM says the same thing) so you either have to close the face (as Homer talked about) are aim farther left with the plane line. Am I making correct statements. You also have to aim left to account for the additional shaft lean on irons.
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Post by gmbtempe on Mar 13, 2010 15:56:09 GMT -5
Jeff, I threw together this photo of a shot that I hit that was actually executed perfectly for me. There is a white sign about 5 yards right of the green line which is my ball target line. The red line is where I aligned my shoulders and hips which was open about 5 degrees though on the picture it was close. The ball started right on the green line and faded 5 yards right and almost hit the white sign right of the green line. 1. Is my plane line bent? 2. Did it fade the 5 yards because my face was open? bent plane line? correct setup? I don't honestly know, its just something that was really working yesterday.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 13, 2010 19:33:26 GMT -5
Greg,
You wrote-: "So if I am understanding a straight plane line does not have to be parallel to the ball target line, you can easily have it 10 degrees left of target. I would image the CP release adds more cut spin than a horizontal hinge action (think TGM says the same thing) so you either have to close the face (as Homer talked about) are aim farther left with the plane line. Am I making correct statements. You also have to aim left to account for the additional shaft lean on irons."
The plane line is the base of the inclined plane. If you are tracing the plane line, then you are tracing a SPL and that allows you to generate an "on-plane" swing and an in-to-square-to-in clubhead path (relative to the plane line). The plane line can be the ball-target line or it can be aimed left or right of the target. The stance can be square to the plane line, or open or closed relative to the plane line. I prefer a square stance for all shots, and I like the idea of tracing the plane line for all shots - whether the intention is to hit a straight shot, draw or fade. I believe that one should never bend the plane line. I don't know if a CP release bends the plane line, because nobody has provided me with a precise definition of a CP release (versus a CF release).
With Dana and Dan now being forum members, it would be nice to learn who originated the terms CP release, and CF release, and it would be nice if they could offer us precise definitions (presuming that they know the answer).
Regarding your swing.
Your stance is open to the ball-target line. However, that doesn't mean that your plane line is aimed left. Only you can tell us if your plane line is aimed left, and whether you are trying to trace that plane line or whether you are hitting out-to-in relative to that plane line.
Your fade ball flight is compatible with a plane line that is aimed a few degree left-of-the-ball-target line. The ball starts off at the target because you are hitting down at the ball - which is behind low point. A slight fade could be due to your clubface being slightly open (relative to the "true" clubhead path at the moment of impact).
Jeff.
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 13, 2010 21:56:57 GMT -5
Mac coined the term CP and CF and it relates to the release. Cp means baseline is shifted left and CP is shifted right. Plane line is not bent but simply shifted one way for the other.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 14, 2010 0:36:16 GMT -5
Dan - you wrote-: "Mac coined the term CP and CF and it relates to the release. Cp means baseline is shifted left and CP is shifted right. Plane line is not bent but simply shifted one way for the other."
What about about the pre-impact baseline? Surely the pre-impact baseline must be in a straight-line with the post-impact baseline - if the baseline is not bent. If a CP release means that the baseline is shifted left, then the baseline must be directed out-to-in (relative to the ball-target line) before impact, and if a CF release means that the baseline is shifted right, then the baseline must be directed in-to-out (relative to the ball-target line) before impact.
Is that what you are saying?
What about a golfer whose baseline is directly along the ball-target line (straight towards the target) - what type of release is he using?
Jeff.
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 14, 2010 2:28:01 GMT -5
Dan - you wrote-: "Mac coined the term CP and CF and it relates to the release. Cp means baseline is shifted left and CP is shifted right. Plane line is not bent but simply shifted one way for the other." What about about the pre-impact baseline? Surely the pre-impact baseline must be in a straight-line with the post-impact baseline - if the baseline is not bent. If a CP release means that the baseline is shifted left, then the baseline must be directed out-to-in (relative to the ball-target line) before impact, and if a CF release means that the baseline is shifted right, then the baseline must be directed in-to-out (relative to the ball-target line) before impact. Is that what you are saying? What about a golfer whose baseline is directly along the ball-target line (straight towards the target) - what type of release is he using? Jeff. Yes CP is across the ball and CF is more inside out. When the baseline and target line match that is an inline swing, path of clubhead will still be slightly in to out due to ball being hit prior to low point.
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Post by imperfectgolfer on Mar 14, 2010 11:39:16 GMT -5
Dan - you state that the CP swing is more out-to-in and the CF swing is more in-to-out. Does a golfer, who uses either a CP swing or a CF swing, still trace a SPL (base of the inclined plane - HSP) throughout the entire downswing and followthrough? If they do, do they have their body stance parallel to their HSP (which is not directed at the target)?
Jeff.
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Post by iteachgolf on Mar 14, 2010 19:29:57 GMT -5
Dan - you state that the CP swing is more out-to-in and the CF swing is more in-to-out. Does a golfer, who uses either a CP swing or a CF swing, still trace a SPL (base of the inclined plane - HSP) throughout the entire downswing and followthrough? If they do, do they have their body stance parallel to their HSP (which is not directed at the target)? Jeff. Not necessarily parallel to their HSP. In Mac's model Plane would be Open-Closed for CP and Closed- Closed for CF. Still trace a SPL the entire downswing.
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