Flat left wrist

[imperfectgolfer]

Do you believe that the left wrist should be flat throughout the backswing/downswing?

If you do - do you clearly differentiate between an anatomically flat left wrist and a geometrically flat left wrist?

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Jeff,

For my own understanding of the two attached is a picture of my swing at the top, the left wrist looks flat, does this fall into the anatomically flat category, geometrically, or neither? Ideally this would just be maintained to impact.

[imperfectgolfer]

Greg,

I would label your end-backswing left wrist position as being geometrically flat, and not anatomically flat.

Here is an example of an anatomically flat left wrist position at the end-backswing.



Tiger Woods has an anatomically flat left wrist at the end-backswing (image 1) and he maintains an anatomically flat left wrist during his downswing.

Can you see the difference?

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Yes I can see that, is that natural in the golf swing or has he built that into his swing consciously?

[imperfectgolfer]

The word "natural" can be biomechanically applied to a geometrically flat left wrist (neutral left wrist that appears minimally cupped) and to an anatomically flat left wrist (slightly palmar flexed left wrist that slightly alters the straight line relationship inbuilt into Homer Kelley's definition of a left arm flying wedge).

Note that you have the "correct" left arm flying wedge relationship at your end-backswing position (clubshaft and left arm have a straight-line relationship), while Tiger Woods' clubshaft is slightly out-of-alignment at the end-backswing position (the clubshaft is slightly laid back [slightly shallowed-out] due to the fact that he is palmar flexing his left wrist to a small degree).

I personally believe that it biomechanically acceptable to have either an anatomically flat left wrist or a geometrically flat left wrist (neutral left wrist) during the backswing/downswing. At impact, the left wrist will always be anatomically flat if there is forward shaft lean at impact - because the left wrist must be palmar flexed if the clubshaft has forward shaft lean (hands ahead of the clubhead).

Jeff.

[imperfectgolfer]

In a thread at Lynn Blake's forum, forum members have argued that the left wrist cannot possibly be flat in the mid-downswing because the left upper arm is on a higher plane than the back of the left wrist/hand which lies on the inclined plane.

Do you believe in that assertion?

If yes, then how do you explain what's happening in Tiger Woods swing, where his left wrist is anatomically flat throughout the entire downswing.

See - www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgsrCCF-oEE

Here are capture images from that swing video.



Jeff

[Richie3Jack]

No, I don't. Hogan's cupped wrist at P4 is a perfect example. I believe Couples has the same deal.

Homer Kelley talks about a FLW at impact. He doesn't talk about it being that way in other parts of the swing.

Just my .02.




3JACK

[imperfectgolfer]

I think that a major weakness in Homer's TGM book is that he did not differentiate between an anatomically FLW and a geometrically FLW.

That's why I introduced this topic.

You state that HK only recommended a FLW at impact and that he didn't recommend a FLW during the swing motion.

I presume that you are referring to an anatomically FLW, which is a slightly palmar flexed left wrist. At impact, a golfer should have an anatomically FLW if the ball is behind low point.

However, what about a geometrically FLW? Shouldn't a golfer always have a geometrically FLW (a left wrist that is neutral, and not dorsiflexed or palmar flexed) throughout the downswing to ensure that the left arm flying wedge remains internally intact (where the clubshaft is always in a straight-line relationship with the straight left arm)? If the left wrist is not geometrically flat (neutral), that means that it is either dorsiflexed or palmar flexed, and that means that the left arm flying wedge's internal relationship is disrupted.

Didn't Homer Kelley imply that the left arm flying wedge should remain intact throughout the downswing, and that the only motion that can occur within the left arm flying wedge structure is a variable degree of left wrist uncocking (without any left wrist bending)?

Jeff.

[mudball]

Jan 19, 2010 14:25:42 GMT -5 imperfectgolfer said:

Do you believe that the left wrist should be flat throughout the backswing/downswing?

If you do - do you clearly differentiate between an anatomically flat left wrist and a geometrically flat left wrist?

Jeff.

Jeff

Good topic, thanks - we should learn something from this one! Now where do I start?
"No" - I do not think the left wrist should be flat throughout the backswing and downswing. I do think it is particularly helpful if it is flat (anatomically is great - geometrically is good) around impact. Anything else is personal preference and not absolutely essential. That's my personal opinion. Is my left wrist flat at impact ? no not always - I find it easier to be flat at impact if it is flat at the top of the backswing - this is what I've found. Would I want to look like Tiger at the top? No it's not flat it's arched. It has gone beyond anatomically flat and is in fact arched.

Why do I think it doesn't matter?

My evidence is Lee Trevnio and Ben Hogan - both have diffferent wrist positions at the top (ok I know Hogan went through a period earlier in his career where he was not cupped) but pretty flat wrists at impact.
So I think at the end of the day the ball doesn't know what your wrists are doing at any part in the swing - it only cares about impact. Whatever helps a golfer get to impact in good shape is what they should do.

In my humble opinion.

P.S. Greg - that's a great top of the swing position you have!

[imperfectgolfer]

Mudball

You wrote-: ""No" - I do not think the left wrist should be flat throughout the backswing and downswing."

That statement seemingly implies (to me) that you do not believe in ensuring that the clubshaft only moves within the plane of the left arm flying wedge during the downswing. I believe that the left wrist must be geometrically flat (presuming a golfer has a neutral grip) throughout the downswing to ensure that the clubshaft always moves within the plane of the left arm flying wedge.

You also wrote with respect to Tiger Woods left wrist at the end-backswing -: "No it's not flat it's arched. It has gone beyond anatomically flat and is in fact arched."

I harbor a different opinion. I think that Tiger Woods has an anatomically flat left wrist - defined as the situation where the back of the flat left wrist is in a straight-line relationship with the back of the left forearm. An arched left wrist would have the back of the left wrist bent more ventrally with respect to the back of the left forearm and I do not see that anatomical phenomenon in this series of photos of Tiger Woods swing.



You also wrote-: "Why do I think it doesn't matter?

My evidence is Lee Trevnio and Ben Hogan - both have different wrist positions at the top (ok I know Hogan went through a period earlier in his career where he was not cupped) but pretty flat wrists at impact.
So I think at the end of the day the ball doesn't know what your wrists are doing at any part in the swing - it only cares about impact."

I believe that Hogan has a geometrically flat left wrist at the end-backswing position and also throughout his downswing- which means that he has maintained the clubshaft in a straight-line relationship with his left arm.

See the following photos.



I believe that Hogan only converts from a geometrically flat left wrist to an anatomically flat left wrist at impact - because he has his hands ahead of the clubhead (has forward shaft lean) at impact.

I personally believe that it is advantageous to have a geometrically flat left wrist throughout the backswing/downswing and thereby ensure that the left arm flying wedge's internal relationship (between the clubshaft and left arm) is constantly maintained throughout the entire backswing and downswing.

Baseball player's do not maintain this relationship and they therefore have the problem of getting the clubshaft in-line with the left arm in the downswing.



In this comparison diagrammatic photo between a baseball player and a golfer, the baseball player has to drop his clubshaft behind him at the start of the downswing - because he doesn't have a structurally correct left arm flying wedge at his end-backswing position.

Jeff.

[mudball]

Jeff

Great reply - thanks.

Personally I don't get baseball analogies - you see I'm an englishman and we stop playing rounders (which is what basically baseball is ) when we are about 10.

Now if you could take a look at cricket then that might help....

Seriously, I'll accept Tiger Woods is most possibly flat not arched - it looks a little arched to me - but. I've only seen his swing up close a few times and I wasn't looking at this component of his swing to be honest.

But the main thrust of my argument is that there have been good players (e.g. Trevino and Hogan) who had opposing wrist positions at the top of the backswing. So at some point during the swing they changed if they both ended up flat.
We know Hogan said his secret was the cupping of his left wrist - I don't know when the sequence of photo's below was taken in relation to his swing development - I accept it may be in his prime and post car crash.

But the fact remains that there are excellent players with different swing positions - I'll compare Fredy Couples with Mark JAmes for example - Mark is very arched. So that in itself is not important in my opinion.

Your assertion is that it is better to stay flat throughout the backswing and downswing - I think I would agree with you and if teaching someone without any habits or personal customisations I'd start out with a flat left wrist.

Thanks again for adding those pictures. P.S. Don't worry about cricket analogy - being English we lose at Cricket so I'm not sure it's a good sport for us English to base anything on!

[imperfectgolfer]

If you read this BM thread, you can see that most golfers are very confused about this topic.

www.brianmanzella.com/forum/golfing-discussions/12919-does-flat-left-wrist-requires-neutral-grip.html

If golfers understood two things, they would understand this topic better.

That a i) cupped left wrist at the end-backswing position can represent a geometrically flat left wrist if ii) the left arm flying wedge is geometrically intact.



Note that Hogan has a cupped left wrist (geometrically FLW) in image 1 and that his left arm flying wedge is geometrically intact.

One needs to look at the relationship of the clubshaft to the left arm when assessing a cupped left wrist at the end-backswing position. If the clubshaft is in-line with the left arm, then the cupping is natural (geometrically FLW) and not due to left wrist dorsiflexion (left wrist bending).

Jeff.

[gmbtempe]

Good catch Jeff, gotta be honest that while I like that board there are many cooks in that kitchen and often contradictions appear within a thread.

I have noticed when this happens the threads start to get a bunch of deleted posts in an effort to clean things up.